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20 Apr 2015, 06:21 (Ref:3529207) | #2401 | |
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Maybe we are reading it wrong, when your only goal is 1st place then you obviously don't think about who is second best even if you are the 3rd We know that Porsche is super quick at qualifying (this was also the case last year), but at race pace they haven't show us that domination.
There are bigger differences between Porsche and Toyota than only battery system, and we must know that batteries improve maybe 8% or 9% per year so we may see this as normal roadmap for Toyota and maybe even Audi. |
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20 Apr 2015, 06:41 (Ref:3529209) | #2402 | |||
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Well then, the least one can say is that it seems Porsche got it right when they choose the battery system over the other two options. |
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20 Apr 2015, 06:59 (Ref:3529215) | #2403 | ||
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Just to reinforce my point:
“Our hybrid technology is just sensational. It puts us in a good position in both the short and long term”. Mark Webber http://www.joomag.com/magazine/eraci...28721981?short |
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20 Apr 2015, 07:41 (Ref:3529229) | #2404 | |
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The battery system may be the right choice, but there is a big difference between battery cells and battery pack, we will see how hard is it to keep cells happy the whole 24 hours in what Porsche said this year in a lighter battery pack.
Also interesting is that Toyota was doing 1-2 lap less per stint than Porsche, yes higher MJ class gets you more range but only 1% difference on paper and if track was really so hybrid unfriendly this still shows us that Toyota is lagging in efficiency. Or maybe this is the source of Porsche lack of pace in the race because they were saving fuel for 30 laps stints? Did anyone time the refuelling, was Toyota really dry after 28 laps or was this part of their strategy, after all they pitted first in FCY and 29-30 laps would be really hard fit for one pit stop less. |
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20 Apr 2015, 08:08 (Ref:3529236) | #2405 | |||
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Mods? |
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20 Apr 2015, 09:16 (Ref:3529246) | #2406 | ||||
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It seems that the Mods are ok with discussing this here
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I did not. |
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20 Apr 2015, 11:33 (Ref:3529263) | #2407 | ||
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The other two factories did double stint - Toyota did it first with the #1 which forced Audi into doing the same with the #7.
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20 Apr 2015, 12:15 (Ref:3529269) | #2408 | ||
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Ah! I missed that. Thanks.
Porsche did not. They knew they could not, and so because they knew every stop required a tire change (at least two tires), they needed to try and make as few as possible. Sound reasoning. |
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20 Apr 2015, 13:16 (Ref:3529286) | #2409 | |
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I am a fan of the Eta Tau podcast, a German podcast (sometimes German language, sometimes English language) on various technical topics. Very in-depth discussion of technical issues with experts in different fields. The host had a nearly 3 hour conversation in English with various people at Toyota Motorsport GMBH. The interview starts with Alastair Moffitt, then proceeds to a number of engineers, with an in-depth discussion of various aspects of racecar design, as well as some insight into what TMG's facilities and their various business activities. Definitely a worthwhile listen for technically-minded Toyota LMP-1 fans.
http://omegataupodcast.net/2015/04/170-race-car-design/ |
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20 Apr 2015, 14:30 (Ref:3529321) | #2410 | |||
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Their words, not mine. As I mentioned in my first post, I'm not at all technically minded, I'm just passing along what was said as I thought some people might find it interesting. I don't think it was Toyota disrespecting Porsche. It was two engineers pointing out what they perceive to be a flaw in a rival's system. |
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20 Apr 2015, 14:41 (Ref:3529322) | #2411 | |||
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I've heard that Audi have got it all wrong going diesel before, that Toyota are mad for going for such a large-capacity petrol engine and that Porsche's batteries are a design flaw. All three have won races - and convincingly so. The "perfect" LMP1 car isn't out there, or if it is, we're miles away from it. Every design is about compromise and that means the three main manufacturers have different strengths and different weaknesses. I'm not sure any of the three have flaws - not in the Nissan sense of the word at least. I think all three manufacturers will win races this year and all three have a realistic chance of winning Le Mans. Porsche's system may diminish substantially come Sunday at Le Mans, but even if they win by a solitary second, it will mean they've found the best set of compromises mixed with the luck needed to win. |
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20 Apr 2015, 14:57 (Ref:3529327) | #2412 | |||
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Anyway, Ginger said it better than I. |
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20 Apr 2015, 17:42 (Ref:3529384) | #2413 | |
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So, the Porsche battery system degrades faster than the supercapacitors. Audi's flywheel degrades less but stores less and must do multiple electrical-mechanical-electrical conversions. Nissan sees an opportunity to go with a system that stores less, degrades less and theoretically loses less in conversions of energy. I really want to see them get that working to see if this theoretical ranking of systems holds any weight.
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20 Apr 2015, 17:48 (Ref:3529392) | #2414 | |||
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Battery tech is also getting better and better every year, and at some point is probably going to pass supercaps (in terms of WEC here), so it makes sense for Toyota to switch. |
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20 Apr 2015, 17:55 (Ref:3529396) | #2415 | ||
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Now this is not something that cannot be overcome. If your battery is over designed (aka larger, heavier) then the amount of stress you are putting through it to run an LMP1 for 24 hours car really doesn't hurt the battery. But when you run at the limit in order to reduce weight, the battery is stressed. |
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20 Apr 2015, 17:56 (Ref:3529397) | #2416 | |
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Battery technology is improving but they still are a pain to discard and re-purpose. As an 'endurance' item, they don't seem to be lasting very long.
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20 Apr 2015, 17:58 (Ref:3529399) | #2417 | |||
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20 Apr 2015, 18:01 (Ref:3529403) | #2418 | |||
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20 Apr 2015, 18:08 (Ref:3529406) | #2419 | ||
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I wonder if a combined capacitor+battery solution would work? A capacitor layer for quick delivery out of corners, with the battery pack sustaining the boost once the capacitors discharge? Sort of like the cache on a computer: capacitors = a cache level closer to the processor for quick access, battery = main memory.
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20 Apr 2015, 18:18 (Ref:3529413) | #2420 | ||
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Variable cam timing, twin (different size) turbochargers, two different rated springs in your distributors advance. All solutions to provide a variable performance over a range of parameters.
The main problem would be the weight of the systems I guess. |
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20 Apr 2015, 18:29 (Ref:3529420) | #2421 | ||
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Still this looks like would be a lot of extra trouble you are getting yourself into for very limited gain. That's why i think Nissan's solution once it gets mature enough would be a huge success. It can store great amount of power (less then battery, but much more than the supercap, or the flywheel in the audi), almost infinite power density, very low degradation, very high efficiency, also the simplest cheapest and lightest of all, at least in theory. |
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20 Apr 2015, 18:50 (Ref:3529429) | #2422 | |
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I don't see combination of battery and capacitor work in this kind of application. You need high power either for charge or discharge, I don't see combining lower power battery in the mix. If you already have high power battery I don't see benefit in having capacitors as a buffer.
As I said earlier, cells them self are only half of equation, the whole battery pack with cooling and management system counts. In practice battery pack will be larger than supercap in Le Mans this means probably only 300 full capacity cycles. And on durability note, Toyota also changed their supercap many times, meaning that that is also not so bulletproof solution. |
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20 Apr 2015, 19:16 (Ref:3529438) | #2423 | ||
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The capacitors buffer the batteries in all scenarios by absorbing the peak charge and discharge currents. This should make for a happier battery and one that can be optimized for energy density rather than power density. |
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20 Apr 2015, 19:16 (Ref:3529439) | #2424 | |
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I agree that the mechanical Flywheel holds the most potential. If, it can be made to work.
Also, I agree that possibly a hybrid/hybrid/ice system holds potential. I know weight is always an issue, but if the load and purpose are being split between systems, then they each could be smaller, lighter and more efficient. |
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20 Apr 2015, 19:36 (Ref:3529446) | #2425 | |
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I know there are battery systems that are of the same type/material, but Toyota has been working on splid-state batteries and lithium air batteries as well. I think we may see a solid state battery if they completely abandon the supercap. Also it was mentioned earlier in this thread about the silicon carbide semiconductor may be used next season.
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