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Old 9 Nov 2016, 04:48 (Ref:3686671)   #51
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This.

Especially if your local track has a "run what ya brung" night like Kalamazoo's "Call of the Wild."
I'd love someone to bring a Ginetta G57 to one of those events and see what the short track diehards have to say about it. :P

SCCA needs a run what ya brung class. It's the one thing NASA has over them, IMO.
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Old 9 Nov 2016, 09:33 (Ref:3686705)   #52
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It's no surprise that as the world becomes more health and safety conscious and nanny state, that those of us that detest that sort of thing and what it means for society strive to find the extremes in their passions as the stuff they loved to watch is so emasculated.

So I moved away from circuit racing, to short oval racing, hillclimbs, bike racing, motocross, where you can still stand close to the track, get in the pits without paying, experience the visceral part of motorsport so limited by big series and championships.

Watching Trevor Willis or Scott Moran bomb past you at 130mph at Shelsley is far more exciting for me than being 200 yards away from an Audi or F1 car taking Copse. Both are impressive, both are feats of bravery and engineering, but one is 20 feet away, one feels miles away, that is what fans want and need. Chuff the consequences.

There is a total lack of ideas from governing bodies. Look at the FIA, all they give a damn about safety, not expanding motorsport, not getting people involved, they are incessantly backpedalling and apologising for emissions, noise, fatalities. How can it be that some areas of the world still have no tracks, no access no representation in motorsport, it's not hard, not massively expensive if you do it right.

Hundreds of people die in sport of all kinds, rugby, swimming, horse racing. Yet do they apologise or run scared? No. It is just something that happens in that sport and is accepted.

This is a time of massive populist change in the world, the working classes are speaking out about all sorts of things. The governing bodies of motorsport will not listen, they never do. but we as fans can act by not paying, not watching motorsport that is dull, remote and inaccessible, and places like this are the portals where you can find out about new things, inform those that are fed up, offer help and ideas.
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Old 8 Dec 2016, 10:56 (Ref:3694753)   #53
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Marc VDS is tired of car racing at least. Set to continue in bikes.

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Old 27 Dec 2016, 23:45 (Ref:3698742)   #54
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Seeing as it's taken the ACO forever--and also took IMSA almost as long in reality and how it took them three years to right their ship when ALMS/GA merged--maybe it's time to be just a casual fan and burn the big time fan bridge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgeIINs1TrQ
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Old 28 Dec 2016, 00:11 (Ref:3698746)   #55
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Believe it or not, I'm in the same boat as you, chernaudi. I'm frustrated because there was such creativity and variety in WEC/ALMS back in the day, and I wouldn't miss the 24 Hours of Le Mans (either in person or via TV). Lately, my passion is gone and I find myself deciding if it's worth watching racing for several hours (by myself as there seems to be no other race fans that I know anymore), or go out and do something with others. Someone mentioned F1, yeah, I was such a crazy F1 fan, but now, I couldn't care less. If it's on the tv, I'll watch a bit, but find myself muting the channel after about 5 minutes and surf the net or do something else while the race plays in the background. So you are definitely not alone in feeling you're in a rut with motorsports. It will pick up again, as it's happened to me over the years. Hang in there.
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Old 30 Dec 2016, 23:16 (Ref:3699212)   #56
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I do agree though that the sport is far too clinical and corporate at the moment. Needs to re-discover its wild side.
I don't log in here often but felt I had to on the subject; I have gone from obsessive motorsports fan (especially sports cars/endurance) to just a passing interest. The quote above captures why I think that's happened and although endurance has, very possibly, never been as strong as it is today, sadly the increase in corporate interest - some would call it professionalism - has diminished fundamentally the accessibility.

This is true across the spectrum of motor racing where so many formulae are either one-size-fits-all spec series or else the costs have been forced upwards by personal and corporate ego.

Whilst the introduction of LMP3 - for example - is laudable in some ways, in another it has simply facilitated the elevation of LMP2 in the wake of the collapse of the LMP1 privateer subgroup. Effectively LMP3 is, now, where LMP2 used to be.

The ACO obsession with the perceived 'prestige' of manufacturer teams has all-but killed LMP1. Audi are gone, Peugeot (for one) won't return unless costs are contained; those with vested interests keep telling us how good it all is, just like the emperor's new clothes...
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Old 31 Dec 2016, 08:24 (Ref:3699271)   #57
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Continuing on from my previous post, I agree with everything chunder wrote: Likewise I find hillclimbs and sprints much more interesting due to the much wider technical solutions these challenges produce; MotoGP and other categories of two-wheeled racing also attract me far more than things like F1, etc.

My view isn't only from the spectator side of the (safety) fence however. I first raced in FF1600 in the mid 1980's and last competed (in FIA GT) in 2002. Throughout that time it was possible for an ordinary racer to do something like that; now WEC, ELMS, etc have elevated themselves to such rarified levels that only the chosen few are 'on the inside'.

On a positive note, the new IMSA cars look good and the series seems to be flourishing in the right direction, so I have a feeling my 2017 interest will be much more in that direction.
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Old 31 Dec 2016, 11:33 (Ref:3699287)   #58
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A common theme in any sport is people saying it's all changed, going to the dogs, not what it was when I was young and so on.. I have watched motor sport for nearly fifty years and it's part of my life . If you make the effort to watch live rather than dozing in front of the telly , in the UK at least there is a cornucopia of stuff to enjoy .

My highlights this year have been as varied as Top Fuellers at Santa Pod . insanely quick speed hillclimbers at Harewood, HSCC at Cadwell, Croft and Silverstone and bonkers grasstrack racing (the most jaw dropping new stuff I have seen for years ) . Other events from club racing to rallycross and Time Attack- some of which has been dire (hello Time Attack ) and some huge fun - drag racing at York.

What changes is the person more than the sport...
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Old 3 Jan 2017, 14:21 (Ref:3699923)   #59
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Motorcycle road racing. If that doesn't stir the soul, you should be in the Grim Reaping thread.
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Old 3 Jan 2017, 17:35 (Ref:3699955)   #60
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Motorcycle road racing. If that doesn't stir the soul, you should be in the Grim Reaping thread.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3723259)   #61
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And here's my latest complaint/criticism about racing other than it being a show.

May I ask if I'm the only one who doesn't like the lift and coast fuel meter stuff in F1 and the WEC? I see it as being no more road relevant than air restrictors and tons more expensive. IMO, it hasn't improved the racing, and is just an over-complication. I mean, how many people lift and coast on the road vs using just enough throttle to go as fast as they need to?

I wasn't a big fan of the fuel flow stuff when I heard the words "lift and coast". And I'm not a big fan of it now, considering that LMP2s are able to go faster than some LMP1 cars into the speed traps, in part because of lift and coast.

IMO, as soon as these series go back to the "old ways" of doing things, the better.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 14:09 (Ref:3723280)   #62
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May I ask if I'm the only one who doesn't like the lift and coast fuel meter stuff in F1 and the WEC?
Probably. If you think about it carefully, in the end it's just an evolution of the fuel restriction formula that ended up becoming Group C. We call that a heyday and a golden age of sportscar racing, but if you listen to driver comments from that day and age, you'll see that they did just as much lifting, coasting and fuel-saving in that period as they do now (I mean comparatively over the course of a GrC race vs a LMP1-H race), except they are doing a regular 6h race distance on around 455 liters nowadays (going by 6 stops in Bahrain last year, i.e. 7 tanks of fuel of 65 liters each) vs 1000 km on 510 liters back in the 1980s.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 14:28 (Ref:3723282)   #63
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I just don't get why the air restrictor is so "evil" vs the fuel flow meter, since both are used to keep the cars within a certain laptime range by limiting power. Which is more cost effective? A $5-10 dollar piece of metal vs a $2000+ flow meter, plus the electronics that allows it to work?

And it bears remembering that the 14:1 fuel/air mixture for efficient combustion is a constant. If we're talking about cost, I know that these are high tech cars, but from where I'm sitting, spending two grand on something that does much the same thing as something that cost at most $10 is a lot of money.

IMO, that's more effective than the ACO's limits on bodykits, where what money the factory teams save (if any at all) just goes somewhere else and does little to help the private teams.

I might as well be glad that I was alive and following the sport when LMP900 was around. More variety in cars, the cars were simpler, and did the job well.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 14:35 (Ref:3723284)   #64
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I'm going to be blunt - you're complaining for the sake of complaining. You want a return to the good old days and someone points out the good old days had the exact same problems as now, so you change your post to being about air restrictors. That wouldn't change a thing because a lot of the current lift and coast is about energy recovery, and there are plenty of series which have drivers doing lift and coast, without fuel flow meters.

If you don't enjoy racing then stop watching it. The worst thing you could do is follow it religiously and find things to hate. If you really haven't enjoyed the last few years of WEC then there's not much hope you'll enjoy any sports car racing. So go try something else, there's plenty of different series to try. If you don't enjoy anything then there's a world of hobbies and topics to look at.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 15:03 (Ref:3723289)   #65
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I'm starting to think that way with a lot of things, such as my job and what I want to do with my life. Maybe I should give up racing, because it's not the same as it was when I was younger, and I'm not the same person I was back then, either.

I'm not that thrilled at seeing all electric cars in racing, and I'm certainly not thrilled at the prospect of cars that can drive themselves in racing.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 16:41 (Ref:3723309)   #66
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I'm starting to think that way with a lot of things, such as my job and what I want to do with my life. Maybe I should give up racing, because it's not the same as it was when I was younger, and I'm not the same person I was back then, either.

I'm not that thrilled at seeing all electric cars in racing, and I'm certainly not thrilled at the prospect of cars that can drive themselves in racing.
Not to psycho-analyze... but, it seems to me that you are probably unhappy with multiple other parts of your life, but are subconsciously choosing to move that irritation towards something else.. perhaps what you need is to find what is actually the problem and fix it.

I miss the old times as well, but, when you find something new to appreciate.. sometimes it's not as dreary as you make it out to be. Am I thrilled with where racing is now? Nope. But, I'm more interested now in engineering and the mechanicals than I was before.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 17:37 (Ref:3723330)   #67
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People tend to glorify the past, it's the same in pretty much every sport, everyone's always going on how much better the old days were.

I think that's partly due to how the brain works, we tend to remember and glorify the positive things and forget the bad/boring stuff.

You cite the LMP900 era as glorious when it fact it was a time when most races were a non-contest at the front as you could bet the house on Audi winning.

From from 2000 onwards until 2007, as long as an Audi was on the grid it was bound to win. And back then people were complaining about that as well, I can't recall people being overly thrilled about that time being a golden age for sports car racing.

Is there things wrong with today's racing? For sure, I don't think we ever had a perfect rule set. But at least it's relevant...relevant technology, a relevant way of thinking, and not a completely mindless out of touch show like some other racing series.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 17:39 (Ref:3723331)   #68
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People tend to glorify the past, it's the same in pretty much every sport, everyone's always going on how much better the old days were.

I think that's partly due to how the brain works, we tend to remember and glorify the positive things and forget the bad/boring stuff.

You cite the LMP900 era as glorious when it fact it was a time when most races were a non-contest at the front as you could bet the house on Audi winning.

From from 2000 onwards until 2007, as long as an Audi was on the grid it was bound to win. And back then people were complaining about that as well, I can't recall people being overly thrilled about that time being a golden age for sports car racing.


Is there things wrong with today's racing? For sure, I don't think we ever had a perfect rule set. But at least it's relevant...relevant technology, a relevant way of thinking, and not a completely mindless out of touch show like some other racing series.
That's exactly why he thought it was glorious, he's an Audi fanboy.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 18:14 (Ref:3723335)   #69
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Fuel saving happens in pretty much all racing it's just, IMO, with so much coverage these days it gets talked about far more than it ever did before.

After all what teams is going to run the car heavier than it needs to be when they know there will be opportunities to save fuel. It makes barely any difference to lap time when done properly but saves a lot of time compared to carrying the extra fuel, it's only the likes of Honda in F1 that need to do it for very different reasons.

People get older and their views on things change and human nature is to only remember the good bits.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 19:57 (Ref:3723352)   #70
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That's exactly why he thought it was glorious, he's an Audi fanboy.
Now you know why, among other reasons, I have you on ignore. And I have less and less desire to be on forums, too. I have better things to do.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 20:27 (Ref:3723354)   #71
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I just don't get why the air restrictor is so "evil" vs the fuel flow meter, since both are used to keep the cars within a certain laptime range by limiting power. Which is more cost effective? A $5-10 dollar piece of metal vs a $2000+ flow meter, plus the electronics that allows it to work?
Actually I don't get why you don't get it. You frequently post about the "evil" (to use your word) of the fuel flow meters and how sonic air flow restrictors are so wonderful. When I respond to your post with what I think is a well reasoned response, as far as I can remember you never respond and it is radio silence until you bring up the topic again as if it's the first time. I will be honest, these days what I look for in your posts is exactly this topic. But I am tired of responding and trying to carry on a discussion without a response and an ensuing discussion. Actually I don't think you want to discuss. You just vent your frustrations and move on (effectively ignoring those who don't agree with you.) This is a "discussion" forum, not a one way conversation. Maybe you have me on your ignore list?

It's frustrating for me to post this because I try hard to attack the post and not the poster, but this topic and your posts are pretty much about you and how upset you are. So I feel like I am giving you grief personally when I try to play by the forum rules. But this thread and similar posts drive me crazy, so I continue to respond.

To the maybe one topic you bring up that I think is something I can talk about that is more on topic... No, I don't like lift and coast and the type of fuel management that happens in a race, be it WEC or F1

Richard

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Old 2 Apr 2017, 20:31 (Ref:3723355)   #72
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And not to mention that LMP900 and first gen LMP1 had cars that were identifiyable because they looked different and there was a huge diversity among power trains.

Now, everything, be it evolution or rules, has become increasingly spec. For instance, only Toyota so far has avoided the adoption of the Audi R15/R18 raised platypus nose. Even color schemes look similar between the factory cars at a distance.

And Toyota and Porsche are running sub 2.5 liter engines with huge hybrid systems. What's wrong with diversity, something we had a lot of 10 years ago? IMO, this is an even bigger "evil" than the fuel flow meters. And IMO, it's highly depressing. Things have become more spec and sterile.

I know that it's ridiculous to complain, because my thoughts don't mean much, but I also wish that I remained ignorant of the politics of racing. I don't like politics politics. In fact, I hate and detest real life politics. And I certainly don't like it in racing or things that I try and find an escape. Again, maybe I'm just yearning too much for the "good old days" and maybe ignorance is bliss.

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Old 2 Apr 2017, 21:13 (Ref:3723364)   #73
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As for not being the person you once were ... I guess when you turned into an owl a lot of things changed.





(It's just a mid-life crisis, dude ... it is in fact Healthy to question what matters to you and what things mean, and to evaluate your current path and decide if you need a change or a lot of changes.

Even for owls.)
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 22:14 (Ref:3723371)   #74
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Things are converging, just like it is in GT3 with the sleeker profile cars being more prevalent than big GT cruisers. There's this trivial (imo) green push in the auto world and the racing series that are high profile are following this to be relevant. It's the changing times. I don't think it's that bad, we get fast race cars that look good. Maybe not as good looking or as quick as in the past, but the racing is close.
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Old 2 Apr 2017, 23:11 (Ref:3723377)   #75
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Found it funny the other day when there was a link to a DSC article comparing 2008 lap times at Monza - the last time an ACO-sanctioned series raced there - and the times from the prologue this week, and people were drooling over the looks of those late 2000s LMP1 cars.

I remember posts on this very forum complaining about the looks of those closed prototypes when they were actually being raced.

Every year, there's a dramatic change to moan about and yet when you're trackside, the racing is still racing. When I saw three factory P1 cars stamp on the brakes right in front of me at Indianapolis at dawn at Le Mans last year, to be honest, I wasn't really thinking about fuel flow meters or anything like that...

I'm not sure how the WEC era will be remembered, because I don't think it's ever quite reached the heights to be described as a golden age - but it's certainly going to be remembered fondly. It would be a shame for some fans to look back at this era and think that they found holes to pick the whole way through it.
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