Vettel To The Metal. Vettel/Webber/Hamilton incident.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by deeks6

I'm sorry ... is that team he drives for the same one that got caught with an opponents data? And got punished for it?

Must be a new definition of cheating on the way ...

"You are looking" for this thread. http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100110

[jab]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Or perhaps the FIA realise, as those of us without the Webber bias also realise, that crashing into the back of whoever's in front of you under the safety car can be avoided even if the guy at the front is backign the field up. Vettel himself has admitted that the wasn't paying attention to what Webber was doing and that's why he hit him - it's a rookie mistake, and one that he's not likely to make again. Why does it have to be turned into some great pro-Lewis conspiracy?

I like Lewis. But what he did in the conditions of today's race was dangerous

[Marbot]

You would think that drivers of this quality would pay a little more attention to the 'two second' (or four seconds when it's raining) rule.

[Born Racer]

Well, I for one haven't seen much footage at all of the moments leading up to this, and I presume not many of us have, so a lot of these dramatic statements people are making would appear to be conjecture.

That ITV YouTube clip doesn't really show much of what happened.

[f1manoz]

Webber seems to be either a guy people seem to absolutely support, or think is completely useless, certainly in this forum.

I don't agree with blaming Hamilton at all. As leader under the safety car, he can choose at what speed to go around.

Vettel was to blame, but the backlash is verging on the ridiculous. He's a young kid in only his fifth or so. Rookie mistake, nothing more.

Heart does go out to Webber though. The guy just has no luck, he kept his head while everyone was losing theres and he did lose a certain podium and could have taken a win. Can understand his immense frustration and I think ITV were right not to speak to him for longer than a couple of seconds!

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by f1manoz

I don't agree with blaming Hamilton at all. As leader under the safety car, he can choose at what speed to go around.

Actually - no he can't. And he slowed up beyond the boundaries of these rules during the first restart for certain.

Vettel's still at fault for his crash, he should be watching the car in front of him not so much the car in front of the car in front of him, but can certainly allow Hamilton's ignorance of the recognised restart procedure as a mitigating factor.

[BootsOntheSide]

Lewis has really pushed it under the safety the car, braking and accelerating very sharply. In wet conditions with poor visibility and cold tyres, it was dangerous, and a definite contributor to the incident.

If it had been Lewis eliminated by Mark or Sebastian, I would have had little sympathy for him. He's been the luckiest driver this season - all his problems came in the same weekend, and the idea perpetuated by ITV that he had it tough today is insulting. Best car, clear track ahead of him, only one minor incident to deal with. With Alonso uncompetitive after his collision, and Ferrari out of contention, he should have won. He has plenty of wet-weather experience from Nurburgring, not to mention the simulator.

[shhh]

Here's the video of Vettel in action ( in German but you get the idea )

http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/23...-japan-gp-2007

[greenracer]

so if Hamilton didn't add to the incident and vettel was inexperienced in his actions let's blame Webber for being the man in the middle.In all seriousness Lewis Hamilton's antics behind the safety car were absurd both at the start and restart if the FIA had any balls he would be disqualified but as we have seen they backing Hamilton with previous decisions during the year.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by greenracer

so if Hamilton didn't add to the incident and vettel was inexperienced in his actions let's blame Webber for being the man in the middle.In all seriousness Lewis Hamilton's antics behind the safety car were absurd both at the start and restart if the FIA had any balls he would be disqualified but as we have seen they backing Hamilton with previous decisions during the year.

Whilst I agree that Hamilton's actions were dangerous, I don't think he should be disqualified, as we see this sort of thing regularly in a variety of Formulae without penalty.

As ever, drivers have learned to push the boundaries, but it is against the spirit of the rules and it needs to be stopped for simple reasons of safety and sportsmanship. I think the FIA should issue a directive on this, and amend the rule to make it clear that such behaviour is unacceptable.

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Whilst I agree that Hamilton's actions were dangerous, I don't think he should be disqualified, as we see this sort of thing regularly in a variety of Formulae without penalty.

As ever, drivers have learned to push the boundaries, but it is against the spirit of the rules and it needs to be stopped for simple reasons of safety and sportsmanship. I think the FIA should issue a directive on this, and amend the rule to make it clear that such behaviour is unacceptable.

completely agree.

lewis certainly has pushed the boundaries, and was doing so with the cat and mousing behind the safety car.

certainly, i dont think he was solely to blame for the incident, nor vettel solely to blame. It was those two contributing factors which led to a dangerous situation, and a betrayal of fairness and justice. Therefore i think it would be logical to ensure that dangerous driving behind the safety car is outlawed for the future, and that legislation is introduced to make sure we do not see a repeat of this situation. If lewis had been the one taken out innocently and affected his championship, then think of the outrage that would have ensued. and rightly so.

However, putting it in perspective, it is not the first time a greave injustice has occurred in f1 - think of montoya being hit by the arrows in brazil when in a significant lead - think of michael and montoya at monaco behind the safety car. It is incredibly frustrating that it happened to webber with his history if ill forture, and i do not think he contributed to the incident in the slightest (or rather, that he could have driven any differently to avoid this incident happening), but that's just that. next race.

[ozrevhead]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Whilst I agree that Hamilton's actions were dangerous, I don't think he should be disqualified, as we see this sort of thing regularly in a variety of Formulae without penalty.

As ever, drivers have learned to push the boundaries, but it is against the spirit of the rules and it needs to be stopped for simple reasons of safety and sportsmanship. I think the FIA should issue a directive on this, and amend the rule to make it clear that such behaviour is unacceptable.

disagree

When a drivers actions is dangerous to his competitors he must be disqualified or at least penalised

Why did they force Ferrari to change the tires for? Not for the fun of it im sure!

[ozrevhead]

Next race is one race too many

who knows when Mark will get that close to a win!!!

[Dixie Flatline]

Hamilton was doing what all race leaders do when the safety car prepares to leave the circuit - bunch up the field to maximise his speed coming out of the last corner and to minimise the opportunity for the person coming second to overtake him.

Perhaps he did it a little too vigorously? I'm not the best person to answer that question.

However, it's a very common tactic in motor racing and those driving behind Hamilton should have been aware of it. Vettel's post-race comments suggest that he isn't:

Originally Posted by Sebastian Vettel

I made a good start and the race was going well. Then, with the final safety car, I was behind Lewis and Mark and exiting Turn 13, I looked to the right and saw Lewis going really slowly, I don't know why, but I thought he had a problem. Probably he was heating his brakes. Then, by the time I looked forward again, I was already in the back of Mark's car and I think he had also reacted to Lewis. I apologise now to Mark because I ruined both our races."

[rocketracer]

the key regulation, regarding driving behind the safety car states as follows:

(as quoted from f1.com)

article 40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the stewards. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

article 40.8 All competing cars must then form up in line behind the safety car no more than 5 car lengths apart and overtaking, with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach the Line after the safety car has returned to the pits. Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances:
- if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car ;
- under 40.16 below ;
- any car entering the pits may pass another car or the safety car remaining on the track after it has crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car on the track before it crosses the second safety car line ;
- when the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see 40.11 below) may be overtaken ;
- if any car slows with an obvious problem.

and significantly:

40.10 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him. Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except under 40.13 below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.


i thought lewis (under both safety car conditions) deliberately attempted to provoke the following cars into breaching the above points, and was therefore driving erratically, and unnecessarily slowly, and in a dangerous manner. i also thought he may have drawn back farther than 5 car lengths behind the safety car. Though this is debatable...

[Dixie Flatline]

Stewards obviously disagreed though, as Hamilton never even came under investigation for what he did.

As I said, it's a common tactic when the safety car prepares to leave the track. Chalk it up as a learning experience for Sebastian. As for Webber's capacity to win a race, if he's good enough, he'll make another opportunity for himself.

[bestfit]

As I said, it's a common tactic when the safety car prepares to leave the track.

His antics weren't restricted to when the safety car was about to pull off the track. In the initial safety car period I noticed him at least twice come to almost a complete stop mid corner, causing Alonso to have to dive to the inside and momentarily overtake him. With no indication the the safety car was going to pull off any time soon, I thought he was being very aggressive for no real purpose.

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by Dixie Flatline

As I said, it's a common tactic when the safety car prepares to leave the track.

i think it went past bunching the field up however. In fact under the first restart, martin commented about lewis' bunching up, and suggested that he was perhaps taking it a little too far.

however, the bunching the field up was not the problem - it was the erratic driving which proved to be dangerous.

[FPV GTHO]

Hamilton claims he was running a harder compound brake system, requiring him to be more vigourous in heating them up and keeping the heat in.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by rocketracer

the key regulation, regarding driving behind the safety car states as follows:

(as quoted from f1.com)

article 40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the stewards. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

article 40.8 All competing cars must then form up in line behind the safety car no more than 5 car lengths apart and overtaking, with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach the Line after the safety car has returned to the pits. Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances:
- if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car ;
- under 40.16 below ;
- any car entering the pits may pass another car or the safety car remaining on the track after it has crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car on the track before it crosses the second safety car line ;
- when the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see 40.11 below) may be overtaken ;
- if any car slows with an obvious problem.

and significantly:

40.10 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him. Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except under 40.13 below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.


i thought lewis (under both safety car conditions) deliberately attempted to provoke the following cars into breaching the above points, and was therefore driving erratically, and unnecessarily slowly, and in a dangerous manner. i also thought he may have drawn back farther than 5 car lengths behind the safety car. Though this is debatable...

Interesting read. Going from memory irecall there beign plenty of that going on. But really, this is motorsport and we are men. Lets not go crying to the stewards for every driving infraction

[Splatz the Cow]

Hamilton's baulking at the restarts was dangerous and immature, and almost resulted in his team-mate being forced off the track. He was showing all the signs of a future Michael Schumacher, or Paul Tracy or Michael Andretti.

Vettel's great drive embarrassed more established drivers, and had him in line for a podium. He started one place behind Webber, and was behind Webber in third when the incident happened. Both Vettel and Webber were robbed of their podium chances, because of Vettel's inexperience. This was exposed by Hamilton's pace lap antics, which led to the crash. Up until that point, Vettel was definitely a contender, but when you rear end someone, it's always your fault.

[johnh875]

That was as p'ed off as I've seen/heard Webber, probably surpasses Monaco when the car broke down. It has to be acknowledged that he is normally the model of diplomacy and restraint when interviewed in such circumstances, he is normally very philosophical about it all. If ever there were any doubts about his bad luck...

Re Hamilton's behaviour behind the safety car, the most significant incident I thought was on the initial race "start" when he accelerated like you might expect and then jumped on the brakes again, before taking off. While I don't have access to the rules and it is not mentioned in the extract posted by rocketracer above, surely that must be against the rules and dare I say it worthy of a penalty. Warming up the brakes behind the safety car is one thing - everybody does it - but that was taking restart shenanigans too far in my book. The main reason I think it must be penalised (even by a warning or similar) is to ignore it is effectively to condone it.

[OZ_HCR32]

My biggest complaint is that this was the first time we would have got to see Webber race one of the bog boys for a position since Monaco last year. Only to again be robbed of the opportunity to put his wares on display. I would loved to have seen if he oculd have passed Hamilton, just like I would have loved to see what he could have done last year at Monaco if the car had hung together. I suspect with Alonso out of the race Webber would have gotten the position from Hamilton yesterday, will never really know but conditions and circumstance beign what they were…I think it was almost his day

[djb]

don't remember the year, but I can imagine a young teenager watching a F1 race on tv at home where the under the safety car (ok technically, as the safety car is heading off probably, I dont remember), the lead "red car" (wink wink) is doing these funny, abrupt, braking and accelerating stints in front of the other cars behind him (legal perhaps, but certainly effectively putting the guys behind off in their rythmn of trying to get a jump on him)

suddenly out of the blue, this poor sodding British rookie gets caught out by the odd rythms of doing this along a long straight, brakes like crazy to avoid the car infront of him, steers out of the way, goes on the grass, spins, whacks the guardrail, finishing his race.
Oh, oh they all say, a young inexperienced driver learning a lesson, what a shame, the poor young Jenson Button, he'll be more careful of a master (weaver) in the future....

yup, I am certain that Mr. Lewis watched this and stored this "how to" in the old noggin, and after Spa and the "here, let me introduce you to the runoff leading up to Eau rouge", he brought out "technique Schuey", and yup, in these days of not having to worry about losing your feet and/or burning to death in a "little" accident, you can do stuff like this and still sleep at night.

this incident happened because yes, there was an attempt to put the guys off behind--I understand this, you do all the work to get far ahead of people and a safety car takes it all away, its understandable to get hardnosed about trying for a championship, and yes, Vettal hasn't had restart experience, just like poor old, I mean, young Button--but Lewis's stop and go's with Alonso were over the top imo as well, legal?probably, depends on your pt of view if you were the lawmaker--given the visability issues here, imo not particularly proper.

I say all this, but you know, in time noone will remember Lewis's part (whatever the percentage) in this incident, as I'm sure it did play a part.

I don't think his off-kilter numerous starting-stopping was as drastic as with Alonso, but it still shows how much he is determined to push the envelope, and given the visibility, some poor schmuck was going to get caught out, and I really feel bad for Webber, the poor vomity smelling guy. I mean, what an end to a crummy day, geez louise!

[JamesH]

I would have thought that the fact that the stewards have made no mention of any bad behaviour by Hamilton - and lets be honest, they are the experts, and were actually there, and have access to all the race fotage, unlike any of the commenters here, should curtail any of the anti-Hamilton bias here. But I DOUBT IT.

Its the responsibility of the cars behind to avoid the lead car in a safety car situation. Live with it. If you crash in to the car in front, then its your fault, despite what the car in front is doing, as Vettel indicated. He apologised for the incident.