New safety car rules

[BFC]

As read on Speedcafe they are changing the safety car rules to allow the safety car to pick up the first car that comes to it then indicate cars to go round it till the leading car is behind it.Sending those cars round to pick up the end of the queue.Lets hope they do this before any Recovery crews are sent out to recover cars. Does anybody believe that the cars catching the end of the queueWONTbe going at race pace. No recovery crew will be working with speeding cars on the track.......we had a taste of that with James Moffat at the Winton test day. T he new rules will allow the race to be restarted regardless of whether all cars are in the train or not,so therefore there will always be fast cars.......ie cars coming out of pits.

[Trevor]

In theory it sounds good, BUT as a former trackside safety official, this would have to be one ot the stupidiest most unsafe acts I have ever seen, these people are ****ing idiots.

When pulling a car out of a sand trap, or clearing up the mess from a car colliison, the last thing you need and should have is some red-mist blinded ****** whipping past your arse trying to catch the rest of the field.

These V8SCA people have no ****ing idea, it is all about TV.

[Woolley]

Yep, along with everyone except the Americans, they don't get the point of a Safety Car. It's a SAFETY car. When the flags come out, everyone slows down. IRL can manage it, why can't anybody else?

[STEALTHY]

The problem isn't the rule itself, moreso that drivers have become accustomed with safety car = entertainment car.

It could work if a limit is enforced (either manually or another rev limiter) but without that, good luck to any official that may be made to work in unsafe conditions.

[RotorFan]

Seems the main reason they changed this was to prevent "confusion", since few teams understand the rule when it is applied.

I don't think that's a good enough reason to sacrifice safety.

If they're going to mess with the safety car rules, they should formalise their crazy safety car reshuffle "rules" that were applied at the Gold Coast race.

[NewsStalker]

It's going to be very interesting when a trackside official is injured because of this (when NOT if) and government safety/police become involved. I can just see the Q&A now

Q: What is the purpose of the safety car?
A: To slow down and control the race so that cars are proceeding around the track at a safe, acceptable limit.
Q: Are there any exceptions to this?
A: No
Q: Why are cars allowed to pass the safety car?
A: Well when we control the field we may not get the race leader, so we have to let those cars through that are physically infront of the race leader and allow the to race errrr travel around the track to the back of the cars nder safety car control.
Q: Are these cars under any speed limitation?
A: Yes - they have to travel safely
Q: Whgo determines what this 'safe speed' is?
A: Well the drivers know what is safe and what isn;t
Q: What would you estimate a 'safe speed' is?
A: Oh - 80% of normal race speed
Q: Do you penalise anyone who doesn't travel at this 'safe speed' and how do you measure it?
A: No - the drivers are competent. We look at their lap times
Q: And the lap time includes the time when they manage to catch up to the safety car?
A: Yes
Q: So these cars would never travel at race speed under these conditions?
A: Ummm No errr yes errrr maybe ummmm well they shouldn't
Q: Do you have any reall effective control over these cars?
A: <silence>

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by BFC

Lets hope they do this before any Recovery crews are sent out to recover cars. Does anybody believe that the cars catching the end of the queueWONTbe going at race pace. No recovery crew will be working with speeding cars on the track.......

That is fine for Recovery, but the rules (and enforcement!) need to cater for medical & fire/rescue crews as well, who can't wait until everyone is bunched behind the SC. (nb - not that I'm pretending to tell you this, just adding the point to the discussion) Besides which I think an approach of spending laps bunching the field before any recovery is going to impact poorly on the races, excessive disruption and racing laps lost. I agree, set a limit in the rules to control the drivers' speed and ping any infringements. They will soon work it out if it is going to cost them championship points.

[Matt]

NASCAR has run something sort of like this for ages, and track crew has yet to get hurt.

[BFC]

Originally Posted by johnh875

That is fine for Recovery, but the rules (and enforcement!) need to cater for medical & fire/rescue crews as well, who can't wait until everyone is bunched behind the SC. (nb - not that I'm pretending to tell you this, just adding the point to the discussion) Besides which I think an approach of spending laps bunching the field before any recovery is going to impact poorly on the races, excessive disruption and racing laps lost. I agree, set a limit in the rules to control the drivers' speed and ping any infringements. They will soon work it out if it is going to cost them championship points.

Yea same theory applies for medical.......and if racing laps are lost if recovery doesnt start till all cars are under control of the safety car,SO BE IT. When recovery are clear THEN send lapped cars to rear of the train then restart race next time round

[opinion8head]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Yep, along with everyone except the Americans, they don't get the point of a Safety Car. It's a SAFETY car. When the flags come out, everyone slows down. IRL can manage it, why can't anybody else?

I heartily agree Woolley.
Big_Trev, right again.

I doubt the Yanks will take any offence if VESA should choose to emulate their "Safety Strategies"...It may even add a dimmension to the "Entertainment Value" of the restarts... no one wants to see trackside lifesavers damaged/wounded or worse while rendering assistance to race driver created incidents,or the "officially conspired" foul ups created by VESAs "race/entertainment" gurus.

Get the Rule makers out there amongst the flying iron on race day,
how long it would take them to agree with the likes of B Trev?
Accidents are just that "accidents" ,but good planning/strategy is avoidence,causal/human factors always present,"officials" who don't know this should be put trackside...obtaining experience "at the coalface" that would allow them a greater understanding of the distraction experienced when the lifesavers are working as one and a quarter tonne rockets go blasting by.

NewsStalkers last question...<silence>
TV/VESA want entertainment....
VESA control,close the pit exit while the "safety car" is out
Do it,and their answer could be,YES!
Maybe not a popular a move "pitside" but with the gain of avoiding injury to "safari crews" a fair trade IMHO.
As Matt sez,Yeah Tu!

[PVDA]

This wont be sorted until someone dies so I suggest WE DON'T MOVE FROM BEHIND THE BARRIERS UNTIL ALL THE CARS ARE SAFELY BEHIND THE SAFETY CAR AND THAT INCLUDES THOSE WHO PITTED, IF A DRIVER IS TRAPPED INSIDE A BURNING CAR OR SERIOUSLY INJURED THEN TOUGH LUCK.

I know typing in capitals is shouting because I am shouting this so those in charge will damn well hear it..............

EDIT: The biggest problem is that these rules are thought of and decided upon and implimented by people who don't have any "real" trackside experience as in been to serious or fatal crashes in the first few minutes or had to put a car fire out in the middle of a race. Perhaps they need to look seriously at including a few experienced current trackside marshals into the process.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by Matt

NASCAR has run something sort of like this for ages, and track crew has yet to get hurt.

For one very simple reason - the drivers respect and obey the principles behind the safety car - V8 drivers pay lip service to safety cars only!

[Axeman444]

i think also that NASCAR would be easier to implement this type of rule than V8SC, the tracks (apart from Road Courses) are a lot more open and wider, you can see a lot further ahead, and corners are constant radius. If there is an accident, the drivers can see it and the associated recovery/emergency crews a lot easier, also it is a lot easier to go slower through a certain section, AND, the tracks are a lot shorter so it is easier for a "waved around" car to catch up to the tail of the field without endangering officials. Also now they have the rule that race positions go back to the previous lap end, so once the yellow is waved, all racing stops then and there, not at the end of the next lap.

This last part could be well implemented in V8SC i believe, and would go along way to helping the situation (not fix it i know, but certainly help)

[NewsStalker]

This last part could be well implemented in V8SC i believe, and would go along way to helping the situation (not fix it i know, but certainly help)

And this won;t happen until they get rid of the current race director.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Also now they have the rule that race positions go back to the previous lap end, so once the yellow is waved, all racing stops then and there, not at the end of the next lap.

They score based on the last timing loop passed. Think of it as the sectors, just one every 100 feet or so.

[Razor]

F1 has a similar system I think.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Matt

They score based on the last timing loop passed. Think of it as the sectors, just one every 100 feet or so.

i stand corrected, however it still has the same effect

[Trevor]

The more I think about this stupid new rule, the ****ing angrier I get - these people have no idea.

[Chatters]

Couldn't they just make it that the Safety Car will not pull in until every car is directly behind it in the queue? That would mean the drivers let through could take it easy and not worry about racing to get back in the line?

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

NASCAR

Snip

are a lot more open and wider, you can see a lot further ahead, and corners are constant radius. If there is an accident, the drivers can see it and the associated recovery/emergency crews a lot easier

Actually no you're wrong. Once a car is on the banking the drivers have a limited view into the distance hence the reason for each car requiring a spotter on top of the main grandstand to warn them of a problem ahead.

I've done a few (slow) laps around the Thunderdome at Calder and you cant see more than around 70m or so in front of you.

Originally Posted by Axeman444

the tracks are a lot shorter so it is easier for a "waved around" car to catch up to the tail of the field without endangering officials. Also now they have the rule that race positions go back to the previous lap end, so once the yellow is waved, all racing stops then and there, not at the end of the next lap.

Correct on both comments above, they go back a lap for the purposes of who is where but the lap count still keeps going up.

Up until a few years ago they actually used to "Race to the Caution" in that the on track position was determined as they crossed the finish line after the yellow is shown. This meant the cars raced through the crash scene at speed to get to the finish line first resulting in a lot of bad collisions after the main crash.

When NASCAR came to Australia in the late 1980's the local officials realised the danger in this and made a blanket "previous lap" rule. This improved driver safety but had the bonus of improving emergency responce times as well. At the time in the USA the Safety Team had to wait for all the cars to slow down (after they finished the lap and crossed ther finish line) which to everyone felt like a lifetime.

Here in Australia the American visitors were constantly amazed at the speed of our response to a crash because as soon as the caution was called a yellow light flashed in the car and all drivers immediately slowed down and we got out there and sorted things out.

[Driver TBA]

Surely with the technology in V8SC's in regards to telementary we should be able to control the entire field to a safe pace.

I find it amazing that CAMS allow volunteer marshal's, fire crews, ect to jump the fences and tend to stricken cars and potentially injured drivers while race cars drive around a warp speed even though the track is under yellows. I doubt many business's would allow paid employee's to work under similar conditions nor would their insurance allow it.

Teams are able to beam back live data to the pits, surely race control could access this? ie. car speed. Why not when the SC boards are shown a nice big yellow light starts flashing on the drivers dash, the teams also immediately radio the driver and the driver has say 10 seconds (or what ever is resonably time) to slow down to a set safe speed (different speeds mandated for each track). Any driver who exceeds it after the set time gets a penalty.

Or have a set lap time for SC periods (including sector times) and a maximum speed for traveling through the affected flag points, go faster than the set times or speeds and you get pinged. This also removes anyone gaining an advantage from a safety car, a leader having their hard fought lead eroded and the old "safety cars breed safety cars" as the field is no longer bunched up.

The above maybe unworkable as safety crews may require the field to be bunched up to allow a break in the lap to clean up or the above is just to complicated. But someone must be able to come up with a safer solution than the current one of cars still driving around at near full tilt while under SC conditions.

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

Or have a set lap time for SC periods (including sector times) and a maximum speed for traveling through the affected flag points, go faster than the set times or speeds and you get pinged. This also removes anyone gaining an advantage from a safety car, a leader having their hard fought lead eroded and the old "safety cars breed safety cars" as the field is no longer bunched up.

The above maybe unworkable as safety crews may require the field to be bunched up to allow a break in the lap to clean up or the above is just to complicated. But someone must be able to come up with a safer solution than the current one of cars still driving around at near full tilt while under SC conditions.

It has merit. Formula 1 employs a system where there is a minimum sector time each driver must have once a Safety Car is called (not sure how they figure out the minimum time, but it's a fairly relaxed driving speed). If you go faster then that time, you are penalised. To date I don't think anyone has been penalised because of it.

[paulmanteit]

What's the problem with as soon as the safety car comes out - close the pits, pick up the first car on track, if that's not the leader, allow all cars infront of the leader to go past the safety car and tag onto the back of the field. To stop them racing around, keep the pits closed until the field is organised, this will stop anyone racing around to get infront of people in the pits. Once they all come out of the pits, there is no need to race back to the pack because they're all in set positions, so caution can be taken.

If anyone does pit during the period when pits are closed, simple solution is to put them to the back of the field.

These solutions work in NASCAR, why not put them to use in V8's?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by paulmanteit

What's the problem with as soon as the safety car comes out - close the pits, pick up the first car on track, if that's not the leader, allow all cars infront of the leader to go past the safety car and tag onto the back of the field. To stop them racing around, keep the pits closed until the field is organised, this will stop anyone racing around to get infront of people in the pits. Once they all come out of the pits, there is no need to race back to the pack because they're all in set positions, so caution can be taken.

If anyone does pit during the period when pits are closed, simple solution is to put them to the back of the field.

These solutions work in NASCAR, why not put them to use in V8's?

That's far too logical for VESA.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Up until a few years ago they actually used to "Race to the Caution" in that the on track position was determined as they crossed the finish line after the yellow is shown. This meant the cars raced through the crash scene at speed to get to the finish line first resulting in a lot of bad collisions after the main crash.

There were no collisions.

It was ended because Dale Jarrett's car almost got hit on the front straight at New Hampshire back in 2003.