[BTCC] Rounds 10, 11, 12 - Oulton Park

[MarkG]

Only just watched the Oulton races on TV, really enjoyed them. It's quite obvious from viewing the races, and comments on this forum, that driving standards leave a lot to be desired, but I believe Alan Gow and whoever, don't really punish where punishment should be due because it's all good for the show. That permeates through to the drivers ( and lower categories unfortunately) and they take liberties.
All great to watch of course, and a reason why the series is so popular, but the cars are all so close in performance, and some hindered by success weight, that panel-bashers can mix it with better drivers. Guys like Sutton and Turkington really should be in a higher level of racing rather than having to deal with rock-apes all the time.

[thetool]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

My thought is that BMR have given Plato an ultimatum

Are you serious? Are we talking about the same team that let a two time champion and arguably the fastest driver on the grid go over the winter? Plato brings the funding to the team.

And do people honestly think Plato has turned into a terrible driver overnight. Last season he was only 30 points behind CT in the championship, an admirable performance taking into account their relative experience with RWD.

[fer312t]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yeah but she's crap. I'm sure some like her but she's bloody terrible. She reminds me of Mark Blundell from the ITV F1 days. They only ask simple questions so they don't have to think too much.

"How important is being high up the grid?". You don't see journalism like that every day. Only the hard hitting questions here.

Both David and Tim used the phrase 'bad luck' re: Josh Cook's demise.

All petty nonsense, and hyperbole...Louise is knowledgeable and asks fine questions, and basically has a great repport with most all the drivers. I suspect those being critical of her have some other agenda going...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by thetool

Are you serious? Are we talking about the same team that let a two time champion and arguably the fastest driver on the grid go over the winter? Plato brings the funding to the team.

Plato's sponsors bring the funding, and it is under their name that Plato seems to be making his comments recently. It is from this area that I feel they may be reaching a position where - the sponsors are telling the team that they don't mind who in the team is the successful driver, as long as they see an Adrian Flux Subaru challenging for the title.

For Plato to be able to claim that the Subaru package he brought to the grid was ultimately a success - then it needs to win titles. At the moment it looks like that is only going to come from Sutton.

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I don't see the sense, and eventually the bullsh** train has to stop. The team had already claimed that the car handled well, it was just down on power. Now they've been given more power, but it still can't match a BMW or Honda? They also claimed to know what the problem was, and JP had claimed it was hard to spot, but they had identified it. Now he wants to jump in Sutton's car to work out the difference - I thought they already knew?

They may have found a setup direction that works with the problems with Plato's car but that doesn't mean it's not losing time to Suttons.

By testing both of them they can see what the difference is in reality. Just because they can work around the issues with a "bent" car doesn't mean that it's the final solution.

They have an enormous amount of data from the cars to be able to compare the relative performance of the drivers both before, during and after the crash so they will be more than aware of if the issue is the drivers or not already.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by fer312t

Both David and Tim used the phrase 'bad luck' re: Josh Cook's demise.

All petty nonsense, and hyperbole...Louise is knowledgeable and asks fine questions, and basically has a great repport with most all the drivers. I suspect those being critical of her have some other agenda going...

Shes terrible. Tim isn't the best, but does have a lot of knowledge, whilst David is always too careful not to upset the apple cart. Louise spends the entire time on the grid making rookie errors that shouldn't happen after your first time, and never ever asks anything more than the most basic question. She's no different to how she was back on the ITV F1 show.

I don't have an agenda, I just think she's not very good and don't see why I should pretend she is. No different to the Blancpain lady (forgot her name), who is always making silly mistakes. Louise Beckett is much better, and there's a reason she's getting to do WEC, Ted Kravitz is getting to do F1, whilst the old ITV F1 dream team aren't considered. Sorry if that's harsh, but the broadcast quality leaves a lot to be desired.

[Alfisti]

JP running both cars back to back is the obvious thing to do. It should have been done straight after Donington as it was painfully obvious something was badly off, 99.9% likely the car.

I still think there is a serious cash issue hence why it has taken to now.

Clearly JP now has virtually zero chance of the championship - even last year after the slow start it was mathematically possible 'til the final Brands weekend.

I hope Ash Sutton is going testing with him, with both drivers and both cars then they can get all the back to back data under the Welsh sunshine. If it is a JP problem then AS should be able to set both cars up identically and post near identical lap times...

Hope they sort it, would be good to have the Subarus mixing it with the BMWs, Hondas and Toyotas.

[crmalcolm]

Are there any times available from the BMR test?

[redshoes]

They didn't test today; postponed until Thurs apparently.

Even if they were testing, highly unlikely they will release times.

[fer312t]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Shes terrible. Tim isn't the best, but does have a lot of knowledge, whilst David is always too careful not to upset the apple cart. Louise spends the entire time on the grid making rookie errors that shouldn't happen after your first time, and never ever asks anything more than the most basic question. She's no different to how she was back on the ITV F1 show.

Sorry I don't want people to upset the 'apple cart' just to manufacture some drama...I like to form my own opinions of people. What's great about the BTTC (and BSB) is that the commentators are all very close to and respect all the drivers, and explicitly not playing favorites. Tim, Paul always call out BS when they see it, but they don't carry a grunge from week to week or gang up people when it might be popular to do so. ITV coverage is knowelegable and fun...could not ask for anything more for a series like the BTCC in my opinion.

People like Ted K - they are like a tabloid TMZ journalists with a bit of technical knowledge. Does not impress...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Even if they were testing, highly unlikely they will release times.

I would expect as much - just wondering if someone like tsl may be covering it though, and hence times being published?

[SteveLevin]

I once had the 'pleasure' of driving a car that had been repaired after a big wreck. It aligned up fine, corner weighted fine, etc., and we literally only had the chance to drive it around a nearby residential neighborhood for about 3 minutes before it had to be loaded into the trailer and driven down to Laguna Seca.

It was for a six hour enduro, so there were three drivers, and I was providing...well... almost no funding (I paid for the tires we'd need and provided my 40' motorhome as our lounge/base for the wives during the day), and I also had far more miles at Laguna than the other two guys.

So between that and some mechanical issues that ended up requiring a transmission swap, I got precisely no time in the car before strapping in for the start. During the warm up lap it seemed slightly odd but I just put that down to operator error. We get the green flag, get down to Turn 2, I stomp on the brakes, and the car takes a lurch to the right that would have turned it around were I not on the outside and able to ease off and just roll a little wide. Mentally slapping myself and saying "dangit, self, I told you that you needed to get more heat into the brakes!"

By the end of the first lap, though, I knew something wasn't right -- I figured one f the brake lines must have gotten blocked or kinked in a way that I wasn't getting full (if any) braking pressure to one of the calipers. Driving around it, was a great lesson in carrying more speed, anyway.

I get out of the car after 40 minutes and tell Tony (the next driver) to be super easy on the brakes...treat them like ice cold brakes. That worked for precisely... 2 corners and Tony's in the gravel. They haul him out, he pits, heads back out, makes it to the exit of Turn 9. At that point we're starting to get a bit of the ol' stank-eye from people, but Dave (the third driver) figures he'll give this a whirl. No gravel, but after 20 minutes he radios "I'm coming in...this is no fun at all" and we call it a day.

Eventually, on a full frame jig, it's discovered that there's a tiny discrepancy in one of the rear suspension pickup points. Under braking the difference of what the left rear and right rear tires were doing was enough to cause that "lurch."

Insidious, ugly, and we could have changed a setup around it, although there would have been some limitations and other issues. Which is exactly what I think Plato is dealing with right now.

Steve

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by fer312t

Sorry I don't want people to upset the 'apple cart' just to manufacture some drama...I like to form my own opinions of people. What's great about the BTTC (and BSB) is that the commentators are all very close to and respect all the drivers, and explicitly not playing favorites. Tim, Paul always call out BS when they see it, but they don't carry a grunge from week to week or gang up people when it might be popular to do so. ITV coverage is knowelegable and fun...could not ask for anything more for a series like the BTCC in my opinion.

People like Ted K - they are like a tabloid TMZ journalists with a bit of technical knowledge. Does not impress...

I actually thought Louise was very disrespectful actually. She was moving team members out of the way mid discussion with their drivers whilst on the grid, ignored the request for her to clear the grid by the marshals, and was asking questions to drivers when they weren't even in ear shot. She isn't normally that bad, but there was a clear lack of respect shown IMO.

Tim calls people out (sometimes hypocritically for those of us who remember his career), but David doesn't. He plays favourites a lot. He never calls out Plato, Shedden or Neal on anything, but tends to get a bit more vocal when a lesser name does something.

We can agree to disagree if you want mate, I understand what BTCC is trying to do and it does it well, I just didn't agree with the coverage at the weekend there. The TV director missed everything, Tim and David weren't really at their best, and Louise was just getting in the way on the grid. I just thought it was pretty poor. I'd rather than Teds technical knowledge than Louise ignoring marshals telling her to get off the grid so she can ask a simple pundit question that even a non-fan could answer.

[pimmy]

Goodman isn't great but I'd take her every day of the week over Vicki Butler-Henderson or Janie Omorogobe, whom she replaced.

[Craner Curves]

She's no Dawn McDaniel.

[BillWiskins]

Originally Posted by SteveLevin

I once had the 'pleasure' of driving a car that had been repaired after a big wreck. It aligned up fine, corner weighted fine, etc., and we literally only had the chance to drive it around a nearby residential neighborhood for about 3 minutes before it had to be loaded into the trailer and driven down to Laguna Seca.

It was for a six hour enduro, so there were three drivers, and I was providing...well... almost no funding (I paid for the tires we'd need and provided my 40' motorhome as our lounge/base for the wives during the day), and I also had far more miles at Laguna than the other two guys.

So between that and some mechanical issues that ended up requiring a transmission swap, I got precisely no time in the car before strapping in for the start. During the warm up lap it seemed slightly odd but I just put that down to operator error. We get the green flag, get down to Turn 2, I stomp on the brakes, and the car takes a lurch to the right that would have turned it around were I not on the outside and able to ease off and just roll a little wide. Mentally slapping myself and saying "dangit, self, I told you that you needed to get more heat into the brakes!"

By the end of the first lap, though, I knew something wasn't right -- I figured one f the brake lines must have gotten blocked or kinked in a way that I wasn't getting full (if any) braking pressure to one of the calipers. Driving around it, was a great lesson in carrying more speed, anyway.

I get out of the car after 40 minutes and tell Tony (the next driver) to be super easy on the brakes...treat them like ice cold brakes. That worked for precisely... 2 corners and Tony's in the gravel. They haul him out, he pits, heads back out, makes it to the exit of Turn 9. At that point we're starting to get a bit of the ol' stank-eye from people, but Dave (the third driver) figures he'll give this a whirl. No gravel, but after 20 minutes he radios "I'm coming in...this is no fun at all" and we call it a day.

Eventually, on a full frame jig, it's discovered that there's a tiny discrepancy in one of the rear suspension pickup points. Under braking the difference of what the left rear and right rear tires were doing was enough to cause that "lurch."

Insidious, ugly, and we could have changed a setup around it, although there would have been some limitations and other issues. Which is exactly what I think Plato is dealing with right now.

Steve

That was really insightful, thanks for sharing.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I actually thought Louise was very disrespectful actually. She was moving team members out of the way mid discussion with their drivers whilst on the grid, ignored the request for her to clear the grid by the marshals, and was asking questions to drivers when they weren't even in ear shot. She isn't normally that bad, but there was a clear lack of respect shown IMO.

Tim calls people out (sometimes hypocritically for those of us who remember his career), but David doesn't. He plays favourites a lot. He never calls out Plato, Shedden or Neal on anything, but tends to get a bit more vocal when a lesser name does something.

We can agree to disagree if you want mate, I understand what BTCC is trying to do and it does it well, I just didn't agree with the coverage at the weekend there. The TV director missed everything, Tim and David weren't really at their best, and Louise was just getting in the way on the grid. I just thought it was pretty poor. I'd rather than Teds technical knowledge than Louise ignoring marshals telling her to get off the grid so she can ask a simple pundit question that even a non-fan could answer.

You hit the nail on the head. Dunno if Oulton was just an off day for ITV, but the whole 'package' just didn't seem to work as well as it normally does.

I think the issue in general is there's actually very few people who are both knowledgeable and capable of hosting such a 'show'. Steve clearly lacks the knowledge part so rightly keeps to the host duties only, though even then he slips up at times (age getting to him?).

As much as Paul comes across as a super eager, hump your leg like a terrier, type of TV personality, I'd much rather see him do the grid walks. He's got a good rapport with the drivers and whilst knowledgeable can dumb things down enough for the general audience and explain things in layman's terms.

Louise may have once provided some eye candy for the blokes, but that ship has sailed, and rather than get another 'bimbo' prancing around, let's get someone who knows what to ask!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

Louise may have once provided some eye candy for the blokes, but that ship has sailed, and rather than get another 'bimbo' prancing around, let's get someone who knows what to ask!

Louise teaches most young drivers their PR skills - you can tell when they get a junior on who's been going through the training, as their ability to slot in sponsors to their interviews improves as the season goes on.

She's been around motorsport in one professional form or another for a long time and she does know her stuff. I suspect the questions that get asked on ITV4's coverage (which feels to me like it's moving slowly away from the knowledgable enthusiast) are precisely because a large part of their audience isn't that knowledgable about the technology/engineering in the first place, and doesn't want to be - they like the personal stuff and the politics, they like the racing, and they like 'the show' with all that carries.

Obviously I'm not talking about people who post here - this is the very place that knowledgable enthusiasts come!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the ITV4 crew read Tenths or post here on the quiet. It'll be interesting to see if anything changes at the next meeting.

[fer312t]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I actually thought Louise was very disrespectful actually. She was moving team members out of the way mid discussion with their drivers whilst on the grid, ignored the request for her to clear the grid by the marshals, and was asking questions to drivers when they weren't even in ear shot. She isn't normally that bad, but there was a clear lack of respect shown IMO.

This series is constructed around TV coverage...it is absolutely a symbiotic relationship. She doesn't go up to a driver's door and take the window net down because she is 'pushy'...it's because that's what the series wants. She is clearly given complete carte blanche by the series and by extension the teams/drivers. There's no disrespect happening.

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by Greem

I suspect the questions that get asked on ITV4's coverage (which feels to me like it's moving slowly away from the knowledgable enthusiast)

You've only got to look at the Official BTCC Facebook page to realise that a lot of the fans know absolutely nothing about the sport other than which driver is in which car and sometimes not even that.

Like most things in life these days it gets dumbed down for those who can't absorb any information.

[850Estate]

Originally Posted by AdrianM

You've only got to look at the Official BTCC Facebook page to realise that a lot of the fans know absolutely nothing about the sport other than which driver is in which car and sometimes not even that.

Like most things in life these days it gets dumbed down for those who can't absorb any information.

Unfortunately you're right. In an ideal world we would have some sort of technical section (well I would anyway) where they had chats with engineers (past and present) about the current state of play. We hear the words 'we tried a few different set ups in Qualy/FP1/Race 1" but what are they, how much do they change the car's feel, why did they think it might work? I'd love to hear more about that, from guys who really know what they're talking about.

I think that would be fascinating, but alas the majority of people watching as casual fans would probably switch over and only change back when the crashing starts again. That's the nature of the audience.

There's been some pretty harsh (and borderline personal) comments directed at Louise here. Lay off her, eh? She's not got an easy job, and unfortunately the demands of TV can result in her having to ask fairly bland, simple questions. She does a decent enough job and, whilst I like the idea of Owy doing the grid walk, it might not be something he feels comfortable doing. Ideally I would like to see both (one interviewing the guys at the front, and one speaking to the guys further down the field).

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

They didn't test today; postponed until Thurs apparently.

didnt test thursday either

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

didnt test thursday either

Hmmmmmmmmm

[S griffin]

I like the idea of having two different people doing the gridwalk, like C4 F1 do

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I like the idea of having two different people doing the gridwalk, like C4 F1 do

ITV did it last year, with Louise at the front and Paul towards the back. I must assume that the reason that they do not repeat the exercise is because the producers, or possibly feedback from the audience, felt that it didn't add anything to the programme.

From a personal point of view, I think that the public grid walks and the interviewing process on the grid, both just suck up valuable racing time. If it was left to me, I would give the drivers their out lap plus a further "green flag" lap, line them up on the grid and let the race commence. I fail to understand what anyone gains from allowing the cars to sit on the grid for ten or fifteen minutes doing nothing. It is, after all, a race meeting, not a sit patiently on the track event.

And in case anyone thinks that this might be a radical idea, it isn't. It is how race meetings were conducted 50 years ago, although we didn't have the luxury of what is called the green flag lap.