[LM24] Audi plans for 2010 revealed

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So the test in Homestead and two test days at Sebring wouldn't be enough to get the car race ready? Come on, you can't really believe that.

They only did brief shakedowns with the brand new R15 last year and arrived at Sebring, ending up winning the race.

So they have at least the same ammount if not more of testing and it's just an evolution-model this year, still we´re supposed to believe that it's impossible for them to compete in the race. It's an excuse, nothing else. They don't want to race...

Please. How do you know how much of a new car or update it is? Are there any mechanical changes? Gearbox? Engine stuff?

Also I cannot see how you can liken a roll out in December and tests from then to Sebring to a roll out 1 week before a race.

I am as disappointed as everyone about Audi not being there, the race will be poorer from it but lets get some reality.

[JAG]

If Audi was competing in the ALMS, or Sebring was part of the LMIC, they probably would have been ready, but those circumstances don't apply, it would have just been a glorified test session.

[isynge]

It feels very hollow to criticise Audi on this.

Their budgets have clearly been slashed at a corporate level but despite this they've empowered an LMS presence for Kolles, and are running I genuinely believe as much as they can.

Obviously Sebring's going to be a lot less appealing without them there, and hints from the likes of Murphy, and then recently nows that they were supposed to be at the pre-race test got my hopes up that they would in fact be there (sadly dashed), however it is Audi's choice, and ultimately if the pull's not there then it's hard to criticise Audi management. It does raise questions about why Sebring's pull isn't higher, but that's a question for elsewhere.

Thinking back though, how much stick did Porsche come in for for running a limited pre LM campaign in 1982 (skipping Monza and Nurburgring)? There doesn't seen to be a lot of difference to what happened then to what's happening now.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by JAG

If Audi was competing in the ALMS, or Sebring was part of the LMIC, they probably would have been ready, but those circumstances don't apply, it would have just been a glorified test session.

And a potentially negative situation were Peugeot to beat them. Admittedly it would be a "learning experience" but probably more of a frustration than anything.

Chris

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by isynge

It feels very hollow to criticise Audi on this.

Their budgets have clearly been slashed at a corporate level but despite this they've empowered an LMS presence for Kolles, and are running I genuinely believe as much as they can.

If your budget has been slashed to the point of not being able to make the Sebring race, then find somewhere in Europe to test and don't waste all the expense of bringing everything here just to test the cars...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

If Audi was competing in the ALMS, or Sebring was part of the LMIC, they probably would have been ready, but those circumstances don't apply, it would have just been a glorified test session.

A glorified test session, you mean like Paul Ricard, less than a month away?

[chernaudi]

And that's the thing-no one outside of Audi Sport knows how extensive the changes really are. Granted, the 2010 R15 uses the same tub, suspension, basic engine and likely the basic gearbox that the 2009 cars did.

But all we have is a photo from Audi with a R15 on a pallat partly covered in plastic and bubble wrap being shoved on a cargo plane. From that, we see that Audi has gone with an R8/R10-esque side pod/front fender treatment, but little else. It's been rumored that a new nose chimney has been fitted, but we can't see that, and it's been rumored that Audi has made some modifcations to the engine(to boost power back to 2009 levels within the current rules) and gearbox(anything from the usual electronics up grades shared with the engine to maybe a switch from a 5 speed to a 6 speed box, since the 908's had a 6 speed tranny it's entire life that's given minimal trouble).

And what of the testing that it's done? A 2009 R15 ran a multiday test last month at Sebring that included a successful 24 or 30 hour test. That car was likely fitted with the engine and gearbox updates, but no 2010 bodywork. The whole package for the R15 "+" only was launched last week, and the test that Rocky did that day was little more than driving a new car around the dealer's lot or driving a newly delivered car in your driveway or around the block-good for checking minor stuff, but the goal is to get serious endrance test miles on the thing before Le Mans.

But then again, some have said that Audi is playing mind games with Peugeot. If Peugeot did everything the could to convince the ACO and IMSA to ask Audi not to race an interm car at Sebring this year, and Audi finished the R15"+" early, this might be a way for Audi to screw with Peugeot and get in their heads, and we all know what's happened in the past when Audi got into Peugeot's heads(LM '08, LMS Silverstone '08, PLM '08, Sebring '09).

And there's politics. Audi had said since last summer that a full ALMS or LMS season this year was likely out of the question. And their board had to wait until the ACO published their rules, which had they done so when promised(in September of last year), the R15+ would have had the testing done that Audi wants to get done now, and there'd be no issue over a Sebring entry. But the ACO and Peugeot screwed around, and in June, it might be payback time.

To me, Peugeot is who got this whole ball rolling by their whining and complaining over the R15, a design that the ACO says even now is 95% legal in it's original form(and only requires minor changes to make if fully '10 compliant) and was 100% legal to begin with as homologated pre-Sebring last year. Maybe Peugeot should remeber that Audi let a couple of things slide for them. In '07, Pescarolo and Courage protested the legality of the 908's doors, and even Lola asked for a rules clarifcation(to use for the B08/60-80 LMPs). Audi? No compliants from them. And over the 908's front diffuser for Le Mans, did it bend the rules, since it extended beyond the front wheel centerline? Certianly. But did Audi complain? No. And did Audi complain when it was rumored that the Pug was using an illegal active suspension system on their cars in '08(a claim that as is known now has no real muster)? No. Appearantly, courtesy is a two-way street in racing.

Peugeot whined because Audi though of a lot of the stuff on the R15 first and Peugeot was caught out, but still had a competitive car(execpt when it rains!), and a dominant one at Le Mans. Audi didn't whine when the improved pace of the '08 908 posed a threat to their dominace at Le Mans. The got on with it. It seems, though when Peugeot is being challenged, they whine until they get things their way, and it almost backfired on them at Sebring before the race is even run. If Audi has the R15+ completed ahead of their original schedule but chooses to test in private(and come Monday, likely in public), I'd be a little scared, especially if its a better straightline car but retains the original R15's better attributes(better braking, handling, and weight distrubution).

So to Peugeot: If Audi kicks the crap out of you at Le Mans with the new R15, I don't want to hear any complaining, because you brought this on yourself when you should've kept your mouth shut. Because if the UrR15 caused so much trouble for Peugeot at Sebring at PLM as it was designed for the ALMS, what would happen if the R15+ can go down straightaways as well as it went around corners and retains that latter attribute?

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

If your budget has been slashed to the point of not being able to make the Sebring race, then find somewhere in Europe to test and don't waste all the expense of bringing everything here just to test the cars...

Audi tried that last year, and guess what? Looking at the Le Mans results, it didn't work. It rained at most of the test, and that's where problems with the R15 that didn't crop up at Sebring started to pop up, in it took them much of the summer to fix them. And it wasn't one big problem, but an accumulation of minor issues that caused niggling problems that came to a head at Le Mans. Audi rushed the R15 last year to make Sebring with hopes of further ALMS competion after Le Mans.

Audi shook up their testing program, and added testing in Florida(last month's Sebring private test, the Friday/Saturday Homestead private test, possible Sebring promoter's test on Monday/Tuesday, and a four or five day test at Sebring the week after the race that includes at least on 24 or 30 hour endurance test). Also, I feel that Audi has chosen their stage well for this weekend's test, weather permitting. Homestead had a Grand-Am race last Saturday, and the track should have plenty of debris, rubber, and junk on it to give Audi a good test under simulated racing conditions.

But Audi is still hold their cards close to their chest, and it probably won't be until at least Paul Ricard or maybe even Spa(where the factory Pugs will be there) before we see any real sign of what Audi has this year, but if the R15+ is a little more reliable, has more straightline speed, and retains it's more admirable qualities(handling, weight distribution, braking), Peugeot might be in trouble with their much older cars that are nearing the end of their competitive lives if the current regs applied for next year and is even now largely obsolcent.

[panozjim]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

If your budget has been slashed to the point of not being able to make the Sebring race, then find somewhere in Europe to test and don't waste all the expense of bringing everything here just to test the cars...

That is exactly why I thought this entire test thing was nuts was Audi setting up a Rope A Dope that they would spring at the last minute to make for a compelling situation and tweak Peugeot as much as possible. Now, it's just that they don't want to race - for whatever or whomever reason(s).

Screw 'em. I'll be at Sebring next week watching those who wish to participate.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

If your budget has been slashed to the point of not being able to make the Sebring race, then find somewhere in Europe to test and don't waste all the expense of bringing everything here just to test the cars...

From a corporate perspective doing something 'for real' costs vastly more than shipping material around the world.

Audi will have looked at the cost of staging a full on Sebring presence and costed issues such as corporate hospitality and supporting media buys, combined with the impact on the board overall of what their thought on the brand implications of running there.

In the greater scheme of things flying cars and crews out to a track with availability, more or less stable weather, and where there's an established baseline to test against is easily justified.

[broadrun96]

Are there many tracks other than Ricard that Audi could test on without it being a race weekend? I know some of the tracks have limitations on the number of days so coming to Sebring is a good way to test the car on a track that's know to break even things engineers wouldn't have thought would break in 100 races.
However, showing up and having a car ready (meaning constructed and testing, not track proven) at a track down the road (3-4 hours) and having the team hauler at the track is kind of a slap in the face of the casual fan. Most of us here that read everything we can find about racing would understand what's going on but I'm guessing a good 40% or more may assume Audi will be in the Sebring 12 Hour and then wonder where the car is come race day. That said it is a GREAT way for Audi motorsport to show how important the ALMS and to some extent the LMS, is to their brand awareness and could earn then some more cash to go racing after LM. Especially if they bring some team gear and not just an unmanned hauler just advertising Audi motorsport.

[panozjim]

Originally Posted by isynge

impact on the board overall of what their thought on the brand implications of running there.

There is an impact on the brand alright. The people who they want to attract via this marketing platform are paying attention; otherwise, the people who don't know don't even know Audi does this. I just can't believe they are going to show up and test and not actually want to participate when looking at it eye to eye. So they show up to a race to test? Say what? They should be embarrassed if they actually do it.

I think maybe I'll go down to Sebring next week to visit a museum. That makes about as much sense.

If you asked McNish and TK privately, I know what they would say. Those guys are racers and I'll bet it's eating them up. I'm no Peugeot fan either, far from it. Sportscar racing has no room for error with this type of nonsense.

[chernaudi]

Blame the bean counters on the Corporate Board of Volkswagen Group, seeing as how Audi has given them over 80% of their profits last year. Sadly, it seems that much of that went into bailing out Porsche.

[HORNDAWG]

Audi does an extended test in the days immediately after Sebring, regularly, this is nothing new! The cars are not ready for competition yet.










L.P.

[chernaudi]

And how many times have you and I have been saying that?! The completed car was just rolled out last week! Even though the tub, suspension, and basic engine and gearbox(?) package is the same as '09, areo wise, the car is quite different, and CFD and windtunnel can only tell so much. And who know what else Audi changed, includling rumors of a different approach to the nose chimeny. Sorted doesn't mean ready to race: the Audi R8 was a sorted race car at Sebring in 2000, but had minor(but not race losing) problems, as did the R10 in '06. Sorted and tested doesn't neccessarily mean ready to race, even if an older car forms the core of a car that's so evolved that in several ways it's almost a new car, like the Acura ARX-01c. For some reason, I don't think that Highcroft will run the total package for the ARX-01c at Sebring, being an ALMS race(the "C" package being geared towards Le Mans), and production short falls if there are any. If that's the case, then Highcroft will run the ARX-01b with the ARX-02 rear wing.

Same deal with Audi-they know that mechanically the car is reliable in and of itself and the chassis is sound, but you need test miles on a car to determine if the changes equate to their theories in real world situlations. You can ask anyone who used an early M-16 in Vietnam who thew it away in favor of a M-14 or a SKS or an AK-47, because the early M-16s barely worked. Audi is choosing the safer route this year instead of rushing with the R15 like last year and ended up with a car that lived up to it's performance potential only on ALMS circuits.

[merlot brougham]

Originally Posted by panozjim

Screw 'em. I'll be at Sebring next week watching those who wish to participate.

EXACTLY. I've devoted a lot of dollars to this race series over the years and I'll be sure to let someone in the Peugeot team know how much I appreciate them being there despite the fact that they sell no cars here. That is the mark of a team that wants to RACE and put a show for the people.

[HJJ]

All Audi is going is postioning. Their goal is to beat Puegeot at LeMans. Are people going to be talking about this till they drop the green flag, you bet. Is that what they want, you bet. They are not racing, they are testing. And in the big picture, MARKETING. Are we talking about, yes. But is going to sell any more cars beteween now and LeMans, doubtful. But if they win LeMans, well then, that changes the whole dynamic. Game over.

[LagunaSnaka]

Originally Posted by HJJ

All Audi is going is postioning. Their goal is to beat Puegeot at LeMans. Are people going to be talking about this till they drop the green flag, you bet. Is that what they want, you bet. They are not racing, they are testing. And in the big picture, MARKETING. Are we talking about, yes. But is going to sell any more cars beteween now and LeMans, doubtful. But if they win LeMans, well then, that changes the whole dynamic. Game over.

I think its sad sometimes that all other race weekends take a back seat to (the goal of) LeMans. Sebring should have enough prestige for Audi to show-up and race to win.. not just be a race where they don't want to lose to Puegeot before LeMans.
I don't think many US fans would actually think less of them for racing at Sebring and not winning. I think they would applaud the effort.

[Mal]

Maybe if the test goes well they will enter - everything is there that they need!

[panozjim]

Originally Posted by Mal

Maybe if the test goes well they will enter - everything is there that they need!

Someone needs to rent a chicken suit and put on an Audi team shirt and walk down the pre-race grid and take a picture with the Peugeot team.

Hopefully Audi are very, very careful during the test since they will be on track with other cars. Since their car isn't ready to "race" they'd better make sure they go very slowly so they don't get hurt with such an unproven machine. If you're ready to haul your junk across the Atlantic, you're ready to race. Someone's been adding a lot of sugar in this Kool-Aid.

I think Don Panoz owns Sebring, correct? If Audi doesn't participate after clearly being able to, Don needs to give Audi their money back for track rental and tell them to beat it.

Unless...........this is all a big Rope A Dope.........which in that case I am wrong and will applaud them for showing up. I will even give them some beer if they find me. I'll even pump the keg for them.

[panozjim]

Compare and Contrast Audi being "ready" to this a week before the event:

http://americanlemans.com/index_news.php?n=14515

Then tell me about what Audi can and can't do. Pitiful.

[AndrewF31]

Wow, everyone's got short memories? Which manufacturer has basically been with the ALMS every year all year long until the end of 2008? And now everyone's bashing them for missing 1 race? And I know Sebring is important.
Which other major manufacturer has been there as much as them for so long? Peugeot? HA! Nothing against Peugeot, glad they're racing in Sports cars.

They clearly didn't feel comfortable with the car when they were supposed to announce their entry so they tried to enter with a 2009 spec car and the teams said no, fair enough.
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of politics here and testing and all, as Audi is not used to losing LM and is probably trying to do all they can to get the title back.
But I also remember, I think, Audi saying the final touches of the car wouldn't be ready in time for the team to get enough testing with the car to go racing at Sebring and everything that has occurred confirms that.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A glorified test session, you mean like Paul Ricard, less than a month away?

Paul Ricard is exactly that, a glorified test session.

Audis focus is on Le Mans and the LMIC, everything else is icing on the cake.

Prior to the LMS it was easy to attract European teams to Sebring, to get them back the event needs to be part of the LMIC, otherwise you'll see repeats of the current situation, with teams commiting, or otherwise, mere weeks before the event.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by panozjim

Someone needs to rent a chicken suit and put on an Audi team shirt and walk down the pre-race grid and take a picture with the Peugeot team.

Hopefully Audi are very, very careful during the test since they will be on track with other cars. Since their car isn't ready to "race" they'd better make sure they go very slowly so they don't get hurt with such an unproven machine. If you're ready to haul your junk across the Atlantic, you're ready to race. Someone's been adding a lot of sugar in this Kool-Aid.

I think Don Panoz owns Sebring, correct? If Audi doesn't participate after clearly being able to, Don needs to give Audi their money back for track rental and tell them to beat it.

Unless...........this is all a big Rope A Dope.........which in that case I am wrong and will applaud them for showing up. I will even give them some beer if they find me. I'll even pump the keg for them.

Audi have done their fair share of competing in the ALMS, and will do so in the future.

You really should be asking what the likes of Acura, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, GM (brands other than Corvette) etc. are doing to support the No.1 US sportscar series.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Mal

Maybe if the test goes well they will enter - everything is there that they need!

To race you need spare parts for 2 cars. I am not sure Audi has that