Lola T460 and T560

[Colin Haste]

If you look at Auto sport 13 may 1976 there is a picture of TTrimmer in whats called the development 360 and Wentz in the new 460 a good look at the rear end shows them pretty much the same engine frame and certinly unlike a 360 engine frame the body still 360 though.

[Chris Townsend]

Does Carl Liebich have details of the other Lolas he owned apart from the T361/2? What was his 460? And was his 560 a kitted modification to that car, as we have always surmised?

Agree with you about the rear ends of Trimmer's and Wentz's cars.

[Colin Haste]

I have been in contact with David Dettrickson in the US. T460 HU1, HU15, 15 the wentz /Saswanto car and 1 maybe the car Wentz had a drive of at Brands in 76.

[dereklola]

Lola Cars did keep a list of first owners of their cars - at least in the 1976 period. I know that because I got a letter from Laurie Bray while he was still working there (with the "original" company) confirming details of my Lola T460 - build date, shipping date, purchaser, specification etc. Laurie has since retired but I understand he still helps Lola Heritage with similar info from time to time.

Does anyone know of anyone using Lola Heritage?

[Chris Townsend]

Derek

Thanks, that's interesting. Most of the earlier Lola build records just show the agency that sold the car and for the US and Canada most cars went through Haas at that time

[dereklola]

Chris

You're probably right I'm sure - my example is only a sample of one!

From Laurie Bray 18 Feb 1994 - "Your car (HU11) was built 22 April 1976, first car was built 13 Feb 1976, all T460 chassis were built in 1976".

From Mike Blanchet 9 June 1994 - "Your car was exported directly to Canada for Mr Webber who was the original purchaser".

[allenbrown]

Some Canadian Lolas went straight to the buyer without going through Haas. For example, Wietzes' F5000 Lolas, Kroll's F5000 T142. So Lola's chassis lists may well show original Canadian owners but, as Chris says, probably not original US owners.

Allen

[Smellybeard]

I do remember a few T460s racing in Ireland. David Lamb had a T460, ex Alo. He smashed it into the bank (messing) in Mondello Park about 1979/80. I later saw it advertised by Bob Howlings/Amco. The tub was pretty bad. Body was bright green.

Dave.

[Dan Rear]

Dave, Irish T460s. The Greenan car was the ex-Alo T462 I think, certainly the colour's right for it (orange).

The Lambe car was, I think its a long time ago and have no evidence to prove, the white HU20 ex-Trimmer car that went to you in 77. I believe Alo later either bought or borrowed this one, for a few late season Libre races. It was white, not orange, I saw it as mentioned earlier at Donington in October 78. Don't know after that, though I recall Alo had a T460 of some sort later in 79, after he'd got fed-up with the T760. Colour was white, so I'd again guess it was this car, ie HU20. As for the later colour, maybe Lambe painted it green after getting it back from Alo. Are they friends do you know, where's the connexion ??

[Smellybeard]

I've spoken to some people here and the "Orange T360" was a T362 and was ex Alo. He ran it in orange with L+B on the side.

Dave.

[Dan Rear]

Dave, that would be Alo's T462, not a T360, he used the car in 77 over here in Gp8, and the odd English F2 race, backed by L & B Excavations. Also a few libre races of course. He had a pretty bad accident at oulton in it early on, had it rebuilt, and went OK in it for the rest of the year. I think it went over to you at the end of 77, John Eastwood rings a bell.

[Chris Townsend]

Dan,

I thought Alo still had that car as a reserve in 78 and 79. Didn't he race it when the T760 proved to be such a dog?

Chris

[Dan Rear]

Chris, from dim and distant memory the T462 did go to Ireland at the end of 77. The car he used occasionally in 78, after his Surtees and Ralt outings, was, again from dim and distant, the ex-Trimmer/Melchester T460, which I think had gone to Ireland in mid 77. The car he used at Donington in Oct 78 was white, definitely looked like the Melchester car. He must have retained it into 79, since as you say, he used it again in 79 after the T760.

I wonder whether Alo owned all of these cars (T462/T460/TS19/RT1/T760/different RT1/RT4), or whether he 'borrowed' some of them, his business must have been doing very well at that time !

[Paddy Murphy]

I bought T460 Hu22 (Orange "Racing for Ireland livery")from Joey Greenan,with a blown up motor. Raced it for a season and then sold it to historic racer Alex Seldon in England who wanted it just for the engine. Joey told me at the time that he had got it from Eastwood (cant remember his first name ) and he had it from Alo.

Hope that helps ?

[Chris Townsend]

Thought I would update people on developments on the T460s in the hope of jogging a few memories and maybe finding a few more owners out there.

Known cars in period.

HU1: Rebaque
2: Klausler
4: Pierre Phillips for Tom Gloy
5: Jerry Hansen
11: Dave Webber
15: Ted Wentz
17: Tim Coconis
20: Melchester Racing for Tony Trimmer

Known as new or probable new owners in 1976

Bertil Roos [Gabriel Steel car] only used to R3 of Canadian series, so maybe sold and must be early build number

Pierre Phillips for Bobby Brown, Tom Weichmann, Ted Wentz and probably Michael Lavarum at Halifax AMSP

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Richard Melville

Steve Jizmagian used SCCA

Phil Currey used SCCA

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Tim Cooper. Used not very often, Cooper prefered March, and also run by Klauser at the Laguna Seca IMSA Atlantic race late 76

Victor Larose [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Joe Colontino [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Thought I would update people on developments on the T460s in the hope of jogging a few memories and maybe finding a few more owners out there.

Known cars in period.

HU1: Rebaque
2: Klausler
4: Pierre Phillips for Tom Gloy
5: Jerry Hansen
11: Dave Webber
15: Ted Wentz
17: Tim Coconis
20: Melchester Racing for Tony Trimmer

Known as new or probable new owners in 1976

Bertil Roos [Gabriel Steel car] only used to R3 of Canadian series, so maybe sold and must be early build number

Pierre Phillips for Bobby Brown, Tom Weichmann, Ted Wentz and probably Michael Lavarum at Halifax AMSP

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Richard Melville

Steve Jizmagian used SCCA

Phil Currey used SCCA

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Tim Cooper. Used not very often, Cooper prefered March, and also run by Klauser at the Laguna Seca IMSA Atlantic race late 76

Victor Larose [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Joe Colontino [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Chris

Lola T460 records anyone?

I've only noted the country where it's not US and only noted the date when it's after 26 April. Anything in square brackets is added from other info on this thread.

HU1 - Golden Yellow - Haas [Rebaque]
HU2 - Royal Blue - Haas [Klauser]
HU3 - Red - Haas
HU4 - Black - Haas/Philips [Philips for Gloy]
HU5 - Viking Orange - Haas [Hansen]
HU6 - White - Haas
HU7 - Golden Yellow - Haas
HU8 - White - Japan: Grant/Schwartz
HU9 - Golden Yellow - Philips/Haas [so Philips for Brown et al?]
HU10 - Red - Haas/Rawlston
HU11 - BRG - Canada: Haas/Webber [David Webber]
HU12 - White - Canada: Haas/Robertson
HU14 - Red (10 May) - Haas
HU15 - White/Gold (16 Dec!) - NZ: Poon
HU16 - White - Canada: Haas/Robertson
HU17 - Black (12 May) - Haas [Coconis]
HU18 - Yellow (30 Jul) - Haas
HU19 - White (30 Jul) - Haas
HU20 - White (25 Aug) - UK:Trimmer
HU21 - White (7 Oct) - Haas
HU22 - Viking Orange (17 Feb 1977) - L&B Excavations [Lawler]

Some oddities here: Klauser's car not being blue and that wierd HU15 entry. In other Lola sheets I've seen, a date seriously out of step could mean a works car sold on at the end of the season.

Chris - do you have some car colours to compare with these?

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Allen
That HU15 entry is right. We know from Dave McKinney's reporting that this plate was on the car in NZ 1977 and that it was the ex Wentz semi works car which had run with Swan Lager backing in UK [in those colours].
Sadly yellow and white seem to have been very popular colours that year! Rawlston would be a Canadian entrant - had previously owned a BT35. Might be able to do something with him. Also, agree about the oddity of Klausler's car not being blue and all.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Chris

You mentioned Klauser wrote one off early on the season. Could he have written off a blue one and then got a white one?

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

The two cars run by Brian Robertson for Gabriel Steel, driven by Roos and Craig Hill were white. That explains HU12, but was HU6 really Klausler's? All three cars are running in the first Canadian race.

From build date and appearance dates, HU18 and 19 are the cars of Carl Leibich and perhaps Victor Larose.

Chris

[dereklola]

Re HU11 - now owned by me -

- colour should read red - the body that came with it to me in 1994 (and knowing the intermediary owners I've no reason to think it was changed) had dark red gelcoat.

- the car never went via Haas (I thought we'd established that earlier in this thread). Per letter from Mike Blanchet to me dated 9 June 1994 "....No.11 was exported directly into Canada for Mr Webber who was the original purchaser. The car left our workshop 22 April 1976."

I also have previous letter from Laurie Bray at Lola dated 18 February 1994 "No.11 built 22 April 1976. First car built 13 February 1976. All T460 built 1976 and not before."

Hope this helps.

I bumped into Carl Liebich at Road America (Elkhart Lake) last weekend. If we have questions for him I have a contact. Pls let me know. I don't think he wants to get drawn into longwinded correspondence.

Cheers - Derek

[allenbrown]

Derek

The T460 listing above isa transcript of a transcript of Lola's records. So the colour and Haas' name come from there.

Allen

[Colin Haste]

Allen
do these records mention any thing about the T560?
Colin

[dereklola]

Allen

Interesting. Why would Mike Blanchet, who was Managing Director at the time, 1994, tell me "No.11 was exported directly into Canada for Mr Webber who was the original purchaser" if the records state otherwise?

It doesn't really bother me - just trying to help.

Derek

[allenbrown]

Colin - no, sorry, I only have T460

Derek - no idea! Maybe he knew from some other records that it went direct to Canada but maybe Haas was involved in the sales process so took his commission (even if he never saw the car).

[johnbicht]

Hi. I am new to this forum, but I have some contemporary knowledge of the Wentz 460.

The car was a bit more than partly works, and by the time a bit of the year had gone by it was very different that the stock cars. It lived at Lola. It had a Lola mechanic. And it was continually modified by the cheif designer, whose name escapes me.

The late 75 360/460 prototype was very fast. It had substantially improved suspension and aero compared to the 360. This was later sold to Mike King.

The original 460 that Ted was to drive was really awful. Very low front downforce and lots else. The nose was substantially altered, and the suspension geometry was continually altered throughout the year.

The production 460's were **** around the world and people complained. Then Trimmer got one in the middle of the Indylantic (1976) season and went ballistic because it was so uncompetitive with Wentz. He was let in on some of the changes but I don't think all of them.

One failings of the car was the lighter than normal CV joints in the driveshafts. These broke twice for Ted.

This car was raced in England in 1976 only. Sometime over the winter it went down under. Ted last drove a race car in England spring of 77 whne asked to test drive a 460? with an Abarth straight 6 (or 8?) formula 2 motor in it.