Lola T460 and T560

[Colin Haste]

John
Thanks for the interesting post re the wentz 460.What do you know about the T560? in the book put out buy Stucky the abarth 460 is called T560, I have Lola T560 which is plated HU1 and is a Formula Atlantic sold by Haas in the US ,some 460s were changed to the 560 spec as after market changes. Do you know any thin about Lola T560? or for that matter the prototype T360?
Colin

[johnbicht]

Hi Colin,

I think anything I might say should be considered highly suspect.

My guess would be that because of the really poor performance of the stock 460 (and 360 for that matter) that Lola would have finally adopted most of the stuff off the Wentz car. Further think that the 560 nomenclature was meant to get the newest car differentiated from the previous cars so as not to hurt sales.

i was never around the prototype 360/460 until it was run by King and then it was less intersting than Ted's car.

The changes to the 460 Wentz car was very narrow track front and rear, and a lot of downforce - so much so that he had an almost impossible time getting around other fast cars (due to drag). The inner pivots of lower links of the rear suspension were so close they almost touched. The suspension was such that the roll-centers moved quite oddly. As the car cornered the inside of the car raised more that the outside dropped! The car had several real advantages. It turned in unbelievably, such that entering a corner was a whole new thing at any speed. Behind Ted at the hairpin at Brands my car was loose and sliding, while he could just yank the wheel to the right and dive into a hole. I take nothing from his driving at all, but that car was awesome.

So if the 560 looks like or behaves like the factory 460 then it might very well be a seriously good piece. Do you have pictures? Email to me?

The reason I mention this

[Colin Haste]

Hi John
I can email pics the only ones on the computer are of a very bent 560 after a high speed end over end I had about 18 months ago,with out going into detail(it is recorded earlier in this post),I have an early 460 HU5. It is very narrow track, the lower rear is a reverse A that piviots about 4inches apart the front wishbones are short with the shockers recessed. the 560 on the other hand is wider track ( not as wide as a 360 which is about 7inches wider than the 560) the rear lowers are parralel links attached to a H pattern frame piviting about 8 inches apart the attachment for the upper link was changed and the shockers attacher adjacent to that link moving it a bit further to the rear, the front pivot points have been moved inboard and the wishbones made longer and the shockers have been moved out about 3 inches at the top and the anti sway bar is heaver.the prmo sheet Haas put out said the improved suspention changes improved the cars poformance on American tyres.
I have'nt worked out how to post a pic on this forum yet but will try to do so.
Colin

[johnbicht]

I am trying to justify buying a new scanner. With it I can scan pictures (very low res. from Autosport mag from back then) that will show the decreased track width from prod. 460 to later 460.

One of the big problems with many of the formula cars back then was that the tires for FA, FB, FF were quite different in the US versus England. Not only were the compounds different but much worse the diameters were different. With the factory rideheight settings the roll centers were way off what the car was devloped for. For whatever reason, I couldn't convince any manufacturer to get US tires for testing. They really didn't care! Perhaps they did it finally with the 560.

One of the reasons they didn't care was the way the Haas treated Lola. Ted and I came late one night and I happened to notice a big cigar in the ashtray. We were then told that Haas has the cheek to light a big Cuban cigar and stuff it out in minutes (such profligate behavior in 70's England) while the bugger hasn't paid us in six (it could easily be more) months!

[Colin Haste]

I'm not sure what Haas had to do with the 560 development,but the first recorded ownership I have for it is Jerry Hansen who seemed to buy a lot of cars off Haas, in fact the first recorded owner of my 460 was Jerry Hansen also.This infomation comes from SCCA log books but the cars may well have been run by Haas before being sold to Hansen.unfortunatly all my searches for Hansen have lead to the "dept of internal revenue want him first."
Colin

[allenbrown]

Col

Haas was the Lola dealer for the US so everything went through him.

Allen

[jjordan]

The Wilbur Bruce you have listed is probably Wilbur Bunce (Bunce Engineering) who ran a very successful race prep business out of So. Cal in the early 70's. He is still involved with racing but now works with NASCAR Truck series and has relocated to North Carolina (Bunce Eng. 9009B Topsail Cove, Huntrsville, NC 28078 704-895-8172) I don't know about Melville, but I do know Tim Cooper, and Cooper never owned the Lola but leased some rides in the car from Bunce. Cooper never felt comfortable in the car, hence the short relationship with the Lola.

[Chris Townsend]

jjordan

Have quite a lot of questions for Tim Cooper [tho not as many as some people have for Jerry Hansen...]. Could you find out about his Marches for me? Were they bought from March or was he again running hire cars like the Bunce Lola? [I have Bunce running him in a 75B in SCCA late in 76 - a season when he started with a 76B, went to the Lola and back to the 76B]
Also, Cooper raced several seasons in Canada, pretty much always with new cars. Any documents these guys have, whether it's programmes they kept or even better organisers time and results sheets, sales records, is immensely useful. Back in the mid 70s the race reports in magazines could be a bit scanty.

Melville was a Jamaican, ran a construction company and emigrated to NZ in 77, taking with him an ex Shierson 76B with which he proved useful. Don't know where he is today. I think that Bunce might have had two 460s, one raced regularly by Melville and the other spread around.

The more we can find in terms of original documents the easier accurate reconstruction of history becomes.

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

T460-HU9 is for sale in Switerland at the moment, apparently with a full set of FIA papers. All we know about this one is that it was a Pierre Phillips car.
Anyone know more about this one?

Chris

[Colin Haste]

Chris
We had T460 HU9 as the Phillips car see post back at july 04 and I last saw it for sale at GPClassics site.No further history other than Phillips.
Col

[Steve Wilkinson]

According to my records Dave Render's Lolas were as follows:

1) 1978 1.6 Lola-Ford BDA T460 - actually T450-HU1
2) 1979 to 1980 2.0 Lola-Abarth T560
3) 1981 1.6 Lola-Ford BDA T460 (see 1)
4) 1983 1.6 Lola-Ford BDA T460 again plus
2.8 Lola-Hart T560
5) 1984 and 1985 2.8 Lola-Hart T560

Can anyone shed any light on the T560 which looked very much like an F2 car?

[Colin Haste]

The only Lola T560 is T560 HU1 which I am the owner of. The car was sold by Carl Haas to Jerry Hansen and SCCA logbooked on 17/8/77 subsequent owners were, 1982-89 Bruce Clark,1989-90 Richard George,1990-95 Denis Tobin all of the US then Michael Henderson 1995-2000 Colin Haste 2000 Australia. Quote: News from Lola Carl Haas automobile imports ink, "1977 Lola T560 Formula Atlantic" The resault of an intensive Lola development program.A product of extensive testing in Country and europe under the direct supervision of Eric Broadley,the T560 features revised suspention geometry for optimun performance on US racing tires. An exceptional handling car with lap time potential on all circuits. A design which combines the outstanding reliability of its predecessor wit significant handling and development improvments.There seems to be some confusion possibly generated by the Stucky book ,were he calls the F2 car of Marazzi the T560 when all F2 cars from Lola were numbered 50 ie the T450 F2 and the T460 Atlantic.He also mentions the T550 F2 car.

Colin

[Chris Townsend]

A number of cars appeared as T560s which were 460s that had been kitted.
And presumably didn't have T560 plates.
Amongst these is Carl Leibich's car at Long Beach in 1978
They were unkitted fairly rapidly! By mid season Leibich is back in a T460 [presumably the one that was modified for long Beach] and by late season has actually bought out the T362 used by Trimmer and King in the 1976 Indyatlantic series.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Just spotted this in On Track 9 Nov 1987 p64: Duane Smith finishing fourth in the F. Atlantic Run-Offs in "his ancient Lola T460".

[Chris Townsend]

Interesting information on David Render's Lolas

Ad by Render in Autosport 9.9.82 p. 70 lists for sale
Lola T560 chassis 2
Lola T450 chassis 1

Now the 460 confirms observations
I think that Mallock originally had HU3 and was given HU1 to replace it after the Mallory accident, so that the history of this car is indeed Mallock - Russell - Render.

The chassis number for the 560 suggests that there really were two 560s [or that the 550 happened to sit in the planned 560 series as chassis HU2]. This can't be a kit of T460 HU2 as that car was in the USA.

Chris

[Dan Rear]

Chris. Do we now assume the T450-1 story goes : works development, Mallock (to replace the Mallory wreck), Russell, Render. If so, and HU3 was rebuilt by the works, then to Europe as DW said, I wonder which mug from the Continent bought it, a climber perhaps ?

Re the 550/560s, I guess they were numbered in 1 sequence only, hence the US Atlantic car was HU1, and the Marazzi F2 car HU2.

O/T slightly, do you recall whether there were any rumours about more T760s being built or sold in '79. At that time FAt was pretty strong in the US and downunder, and given that the 460s had gone OK, I'd have thought Lolas or Haas would have been able to shift a few of these 'state of the art' Ground effects cars. Or had word of the testing got out that it was a dog ...

[Steve Wilkinson]

[QUOTE=Dan Rear]Chris. Do we now assume the T450-1 story goes : works development, Mallock (to replace the Mallory wreck), Russell, Render. If so, and HU3 was rebuilt by the works, then to Europe as DW said, I wonder which mug from the Continent bought it, a climber perhaps ?

Re the 550/560s, I guess they were numbered in 1 sequence only, hence the US Atlantic car was HU1, and the Marazzi F2 car HU2.

QUOTE]

Whilst having another trawl through Autosport mags I spotted that at the end of 1981 David Render had two Lolas for sale.

Lola T460-01 with a 1600 BDA and

Lola T560-02 with a 2000 Hart 420R

[Colin Haste]

You may have noticed a T460 for sale to be parted out. I contacted the guy to try to see what car it is and any history. It seems it is HU6 but he gave no history only that it was for sale as a package or parts "bit of a shame"

[dereklola]

Col - and others.

I'm going to see that car next week - will let you know what I find out. How did you find out that it was [or might be] #6? Is the history of #6 known at all?

I'm in Savannah right now with my T460 - planning to win a 1-1/2 hour 'enduro' - but the weather gods are forecasting thunderstorms. Perfect excuse - right?

[Chris Townsend]

From the sales list supplied by Alan, HU6 was a Haas car, white. We don't yet know more.
Given the delivery is before May 76, and the colour, I'd say this was probably a Gabriel Steel car for either of Roos or Craig Hill. It's fairly important that we get as much info on the car as possible before it gets broken up.

Chris

[dereklola]

I'll see what I can do next week. I have contacts for both Bertil and Craig.

The problem with 'preserving' T460s is that not many people want them. I seem to be the only person racing one in the northern hemisphere. Did the one in Switzerland [ex-US] sell recently?

[driftwood]

swiss still has his car
my man has 5 lola cars 360 460 450 cars and then the mad ozzie has the rest of the production run !!

[Dan Rear]

DW, who's the Swiss T460 man, just out of interest ?

[driftwood]

klaus has the car in switzerland- not tried swiss beer either

[Chris Townsend]

Derek

I'd love a T460 but the team manager says that all we can afford is the MGB GT that comes out of the shop this weekend...

If you have contacts for Bertil and Craig can I send you a whole sheaf of questions or forward them my e mail for correspondence? Between them they cover a whole load of Atlantic race miles.