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Old 19 Jun 2003, 07:25 (Ref:636305)   #1
simon drabble
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Historic F3

I knowi that all the front running cars have 2 litre engines but are there any running with Lotus Twin Cams as these cars are starting to become very cheap. If it is a class of one car I guess that is why and are they completely outclassed by the Toyota engined cars?
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 08:29 (Ref:636344)   #2
Tainan
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There are 2 classes - one class for 1974-1980 cars using 2 litre engines, one for 1971-1973 cars using 1600cc engines (mostly Lotus Twincams).
You can find out more at
www.classicf3.co.uk
As you say, the smaller engined cars can be bought quite cheaply at the moment, and that class seems to be picking up in numbers again this year. F3s are also surprisingly cheap to run.
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 08:34 (Ref:636349)   #3
simon drabble
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you have not answered the key question! how uncompetitive are the 1600's relative to the 2 litres? Also presumably the 2 litres are cheaper to run not being so high revving? In which case the price difference becomes less obvious!
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 10:15 (Ref:636411)   #4
Tainan
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Sorry! The quickest 1600s can beat the slowest 2000s. Currently there is an invitation class for FF2000 as well which are between the two F3 classes as far as lap times go. There's always some overlap of the classes due to driver ability, set-up etc.
Both F3 classes run with air restrictors, so both are limited to about 6250rpm. Currently all the 2 litre cars use Toyota engines which are more expensive than the Lotus ones to re-build - mainly I guess because parts are so much rarer. Other 'period' engines are allowed though, such as Alfa or Ford.
The 2 litres are 10-15mph faster top speed, and quicker through the fast corners (more downforce). The 1600s are probably better balanced, and can be a bit quicker through slow corners, or in the wet.
I suppose the best answer to your original question, is that a top 1600cc car should beat half the 2 litre field.
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 10:19 (Ref:636417)   #5
simon drabble
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why does that Ensign keep coming back on the mkt? I see it is in Autosport again.
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 12:04 (Ref:636521)   #6
Tainan
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I haven't seen Autosport this week, so can't be sure which one it is. As you say the price of these cars has been falling, which is because there haven't been many buyers. I expect the car has had the same owner for a few years, rather than it being bought and sold several times. There were two Ensigns racing about 5 years ago - a red one which was very quick, a yellow one which was a bit slower, though I think the difference might have been down to the drivers - they were father and son. I know they sold the red one, but it was for sale again soon after. Don't know why. I haven't seen an Ensign in historic F3 for a few years now, so its probably been sat idle for a time, with the problems that brings - bits seized up / perished etc. Otherwise if it was one of the cars I remember from a few years ago it should be in good condition. If you're seriously thinking about buying one you should talk to someone from the Classic F3 register (numbers are on the website I mentioned above). They know the history of most cars.
I'll have a look for it in Autosport tonight.
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 12:17 (Ref:636526)   #7
simon drabble
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i have spoken to one of the people on the contact page last year and to be honest he was pretty dismissive about 1600 cars which is why I didnt buy the Ensign last time round (its the yellow one). I know it then sold for not very much money (it was advertised at that stage for 7500) and is now being advertised again. I am quite tempted to have a go at F3 as it is quite cheap and I like the idea of using a Lotus twin Cam as it fits rather well into another project which will be using a Lotus twin cam engine
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 16:00 (Ref:636741)   #8
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Surprised they were dismissive of the 1600 cars. All being equal I'd recommend the 2litre cars as there's more of them racing at the moment, but it sounds like the 1600 fits into your 'fleet' better. I think I read on another thread that you have a Lotus sports car or similar. I changed from 1600 to 2000 a couple of years ago - partly because of the numbers, partly because the 2litre cars are more my 'generation', but I'm sure you could have a perfectly good time with a 1600.
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 16:23 (Ref:636773)   #9
Ted Walker
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Simon. Why dont you come and run with us in the HSCC. You can run with an un-restricted twin cam or Atlantic BDA and race in the DEREK BELL Series.(single seaters 1971-79)
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Old 19 Jun 2003, 17:14 (Ref:636822)   #10
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In 1974 the engine to have was a stre.....tched Lotus twin cam or a Holbay Pinto F3( works Marches). Novamotor produced a very trick two litre twin cam well before the Toyota. Main advantage of the twin cam is its weight, or rather lack of as opposed to the Toyota. In period the two litre F3's gave around 155bhp in their restricted form, but within the formula cheating was endemic!
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Old 20 Jun 2003, 06:48 (Ref:637275)   #11
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Ted wouldnt the speed differential be enormous between this and teh front running F5000 cars?? I dont expect to be at the pointy end but I do want to be at least mid field! I would like to try open wheel but am too old to be banged around in FF (its great to see its as aggressive now as it was in period!)and given my committments in the other series it has to be a cheap car, which is why teh 1600 F3 cars looked appealing, I guess the answer is to catch up with someone at the Brands Super Prix meeting and get the full lowdown
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Old 20 Jun 2003, 07:09 (Ref:637285)   #12
Ted Walker
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Simon, I am at Brands in my capacity as HSCC Single Seater Registrar,come and have a chat,and meet some of the drivers,and and a close look at the cars,The speed differential is NOT a problem.
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Old 20 Jun 2003, 07:11 (Ref:637286)   #13
simon drabble
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great I am there Sat for the Gentlemen Drivers and Sun for the BRDC round, which day will you be there Ted?
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Old 22 Jun 2003, 21:53 (Ref:639537)   #14
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Hi Simon. The 1600 twin cam F3 car is excellent value racing. Yes they are a little slower than the 2 litre F3's, but it is only a little, and they race in a different class anyway.
As for the F5000 there has only been 1 racing at a time for the last few seasons with the HSCC. A blue Ensign last year and Edwin Jowsey's Lola this year so don’t worry about them. If you do buy a 1600 F3 twin cam for around £10,000 you should be running mid field in the Derek Bell Trophy race with the HSCC. The engines seem to be bomb proof with the air restrictor fitted (and still competitive), most people seem to get 2 or more seasons racing without an engine rebuild.
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Old 23 Jun 2003, 07:09 (Ref:639774)   #15
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Simon. I will be there from Friday. Come and find me I will be based around the Retro Track and Air Team and their ex Brabham,John Watson,Dave Berry Brabham BT16 Twin Cam.Have any members got any contacts with any Irish Motorsport Photographers from the 60s ????
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Old 23 Jun 2003, 08:49 (Ref:639851)   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Walker
Have any members got any contacts with any Irish Motorsport Photographers from the 60s ????
The man in (Northern) Irish motorsport photgraphy in the late '60's and through the '70's was Esler Crawford. He's still in business, though I haven't seen him at any race meetings lately. No motorsport pics on his website but try http://www.eslercrawford.com/contact.html for more info.

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Old 24 Jun 2003, 06:42 (Ref:641095)   #17
simon drabble
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thanks Ted I will come and see you and if you have found any Eleven photo's as we discussed the other day perhaps you could bring them as well!
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