Lydden TV and Tyres Discussion

[MG Racing]

having just watched Lydden on TV I do not beleive that tyres were to blame for anything but close racing. it looked real good. all classes were struggling for any grip and you should drive accordingly

[mel tyres]

Originally Posted by MG Racing

having just watched Lydden on TV I do not beleive that tyres were to blame for anything but close racing. it looked real good. all classes were struggling for any grip and you should drive accordingly

WOW !!!! Somebody NOT BLAMING the tyres WHOOPPEE

[Thundersports]

I agree not tyres, you race/drive to the level of grip avaliable.

[winnie]

If the tyres are not removing the water from the track then they are not working. It looked to me like carnegie aquaplaned at the top of the hill when he crashed. If he did, then the tyres were not working, and it was too dangerous to race.

[schanche]

I was there for Carniege incident ! he was just pushing to hard for the conditions, all the other drivers mangaed to make the corner which is strange because dermott normally so good in the wet conditions.As i said before not the tyres to blame driver error! Andrew jordan mastered the tyres and the weather conditions on the very same lap and was quick all day.
Old news now really !

[shhh]

Originally Posted by winnie

If the tyres are not removing the water from the track then they are not working. It looked to me like carnegie aquaplaned at the top of the hill when he crashed. If he did, then the tyres were not working, and it was too dangerous to race.

Spoke with Dermot about this last week. It was just red mist, trying too hard nothing to do with the tyres.

[schanche]

Originally Posted by shhh

Spoke with Dermot about this last week. It was just red mist, trying too hard nothing to do with the tyres.

I rest my case Thanks shhh ! Now lets bin this topic geting bored

[banzooki]

Why is it so many people defend anything which goes on at some meeting reguardless on what really happened!
Cant any of you see or just dont want to admit it that the whole thing is all wrong?
Good job these tyres werent used at the very first Rallycross if they was the sport wouldnt of ever happened!!!!
As for the tv !!!! Was the commentator sitting on the loo?
Sounded like it !!
What happen to the hour?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by banzooki

Why is it so many people defend anything which goes on at some meeting reguardless on what really happened!

Very true. Some people will defend 'their' particular championship no matter what the evidence says. This is true of all the various organisational groups (and is only to be expected). Similarly there are people that will take every opporunity to take cheap potshots at 'rival' championships.

Originally Posted by banzooki

Cant any of you see or just dont want to admit it that the whole thing is all wrong?

I don't think the way the tyre deal was introduced was ideal (I'm not a fan of the 'control tyre' concept outside the 'budget' classes tbh) but given that it's all signed and sealed everyone just needs to get on with the job in hand now.

Originally Posted by banzooki

Good job these tyres werent used at the very first Rallycross if they was the sport wouldnt of ever happened!!!!

I very much doubt the tyres used at the first rallycross event were any where near as good as the current tyres. Tyre technology has moved on.

Originally Posted by banzooki

As for the tv !!!! Was the commentator sitting on the loo?
Sounded like it !! What happen to the hour?

I haven't seen the coverage but the conditions didn't really lend themselves to filming so they were probably short on material (especially with the truncated running of the finals). As for the commentary - could you hear the flush?

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally Posted by banzooki

Good job these tyres werent used at the very first Rallycross if they was the sport wouldnt of ever happened!!!!

I think it is fair to say that most would agree that the implementation of the control tyre was handled badly. But I have to say that I see it as good thing that all are now on a level playing field. I think that is a good thing that there is less grip available from the tyres as this gives more chances for mistakes and most importantly sideways moments that lead to overtaking opportunities. Which rewards good drivers rather than big bhp.

I doubt the first rallyross tyres wouldn't even hold up to a good road tyre today, but it could be intresting watching a grid Supercars trying to get some grip on some 7x13" 70 profile tyres from the 70's .

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by banzooki

Why is it so many people defend anything which goes on at some meeting reguardless on what really happened!

I think its called 'spin'! If the tyres weren't to blame and you could drive 'according to the conditions' why did they abandon? There is also the question of why it took so long to scrub the points results... The official website still has no comment on this and the next round is about to take place!

[Thundersports]

I was also at the hairpin when Dermot went off and agree with what has been said that he missed his braking point/red mist........

[King Arthur]

I think its called 'spin'! If the tyres weren't to blame and you could drive 'according to the conditions' why did they abandon? There is also the question of why it took so long to scrub the points results... The official website still has no comment on this and the next round is about to take place!

My dear fellow please get the facts correct before posting rediculous comments.

It was not "they" who called it off but I the CoC. I was under no pressure from either the Competitors or the Organisers - . I had to make a judgemental call based upon what I thought was correct as an MSA appointed Clerk. It is only the MSA who can take my licence away.

As has been stated in many posts / articules I have a legal duty of care (could end up in court) to the Drivers, Marshals and Spectators. AND I AM AN UNPAID VOLUNTEER

Regards


KA - TW

Please feel free to contact me if you wish to be considered for a Clerks licence and I will support you - until then I request that you stop criticising people who give up their time freely to help run the sport.

[Rotweiler]

As a driver in the super-mod A final at Lydden, I think the CoC was correct in his decision to abandon the meeting, the track was undrivable. I was one of the first to hit the water at Chessons and couldn't see out of any window even with the wipers and washers on. The problem was the lying water, which had time to accumulate during the clear up after Dermot's accident.
As to the tyre issue.....it wouldn't have mattered what tyres you were on.

[winnie]

Knobbly forest tyres would have made a huge difference. They used to get used regularly a few years ago in the Lydden winter series rounds. Often the weather was just as bad as the last BRC round.

[golfvanman]

Taking a guess from your last comment winnie that you have never driven with nobbly tyres before, good on gravel but like driving on ice on tarmac. I was not there so im not in authority to comment but if the clerk of the course has to make a decision based on driver and public safety over racing the finals ........... there is no decision to be made.

how many comments would there be on here if a driver had been seriously injured or even killed , you would all be wanting the clerks head on a stake!

its no fun at all driving in conditions like that never mind trying to race

[winnie]

GVM - yes i have driven on knobblies and yes they are not good on tarmac, but they are predictable and a lot safer when the track is flooded. I have been at meetings when most of the supercars are on knobblies.

Big crashes at Lydden tend to happen in the dry and fast conditions, unless a certain TT is on the track, when they happen in all conditions.

MOTOR RACING IS DANGEROUS

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by winnie

..unless a certain TT is on the track, when they happen in all conditions.

Can we keep the discussion based on the subject in hand and not start getting personal please.

Originally Posted by winnie

MOTOR RACING IS DANGEROUS

Yes it is. But there is also a point at which it becomes reckless to continue - everyone accepts the danger involved - but when conditions deteriorate to such an extent that accidents are likely to occur then there's no option but call off the meeting.

As has already been said it was the standing water that was the problem, most of the circuit was usable still but the entry to Chessons in particular was undrivable (at least at any meaningful pace - and certainly not for the minis ). Tyres were not the issue. No matter what rubber was on the cars the meeting would have been called off - it was the only option in the circumstances.

[leonidas]

Sorry folks but I'm incredulous at some of the posts on here. This is not circuit racing its an off-road sport. It's supposed to be based on the discipline of rallying. Do you stop rallies when there is some water on the road? Have you heard of watersplashes? You drive with common sense to the conditions... and in the past you changed the tyres to match the conditions. That was part of the skill of the sport. Now you can't do that because of the tyre rules.

I'm also fed up of hearing that we are not allowed to criticise the BRDA, officials or the clerk of the course because they are 'volunteers'. They are in a responsible position and when they get it wrong they must expect criticism. The failure to listen and condescending attitudes to experienced competitors are the main reasons people are leaving the championship.

[winnie]

Spot on.

The meeting should have continued. If the drivers thought their cars were not suitable for the conditions then they should have retired. You didn't have to drive through the puddle at 60mph.

[mivec]

Originally Posted by Rotweiler

As a driver in the super-mod A final at Lydden, I think the CoC was correct in his decision to abandon the meeting, ...
As to the tyre issue.....it wouldn't have mattered what tyres you were on.

When a driver found the decision from the CoC OK, then it's clear for me.
This driver was on the track and, being in the A-final, should know how to drive a car, and very important, when to stop when there's to much danger to drive!

I did crossed the channel for this race!

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by leonidas

Sorry folks but I'm incredulous at some of the posts on here. This is not circuit racing its an off-road sport. It's supposed to be based on the discipline of rallying. Do you stop rallies when there is some water on the road? Have you heard of watersplashes?

There would have been 6-8 cars arriving at the standing water in close proximity all jostling for position - stage rallying doesn't have that factor, it may happen occasionally (with 2 cars) but it's certainly the exception rather than the rule so the risk of collision is negligible whereas with rallycross contact is pretty much inevitable even in ideal conditions.

Originally Posted by leonidas

You drive with common sense to the conditions... and in the past you changed the tyres to match the conditions. That was part of the skill of the sport. Now you can't do that because of the tyre rules.

As has already been mentioned tyres were not the problem - they may not have been the ideal compound but as you say people have to drive to the conditions and that includes available grip from the tyres.

Originally Posted by leonidas

I'm also fed up of hearing that we are not allowed to criticise the BRDA, officials or the clerk of the course because they are 'volunteers'. They are in a responsible position and when they get it wrong they must expect criticism.

Valid criticism is fine - as long as it's kept objective and nobody tries to use this forum as a 'political' weapon against any individual organisation or person. Personal attacks and comments will also be removed.

Running the finals would have drawn criticism too (especially if a major accident had occurred) so I guess the Clerk was in a no win situation - but you have to err on the side of caution, it was a tough call but I'd say it was the right one on the day. It's very easy to sit here now and debate the ifs and buts - it's an entirely different matter making the call on the day.

[Roundy Mooney]

I think this thread is starting to turn into a bit of a panto at this stage. Right or wrong the decision was made and by the sounds of things at very least the decision was made with the best of intentions, with peoples safety in mind.

I don't want to be putting words in anyones mouth but I don't think King Arthur was saying that you couldn't criticise his descision because he was a volunteer. It is more that he isn't prepared to take risks when he isn't getting paid to. Which is understandable.

Its always funny how the best referees are in the stands !!!

Time would be better coming up with some constuctive ideas on how to deal with a similar situation happening again.

Maybe it would be best practice for the COC to consult the Drivers representitive of each class and the cheif marshall at a quick meeting. If the concensus was then that an event needed to be stopped then at least it was done with all opnions included.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Roundy Mooney

Maybe it would be best practice for the COC to consult the Drivers representitive of each class and the cheif marshall at a quick meeting. If the concensus was then that an event needed to be stopped then at least it was done with all opnions included.

That would seem a reasonable approach - there was some discussion on the grid before the Supermodified final (maybe rotweiler can enlighten us as to what was said?).

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

There would have been 6-8 cars arriving at the standing water in close proximity all jostling for position - stage rallying doesn't have that factor, it may happen occasionally (with 2 cars) but it's certainly the exception rather than the rule so the risk of collision is negligible whereas with rallycross contact is pretty much inevitable even in ideal conditions.

Hmm, can't agree about the relative dangers Bert. I'd say rallying is much more dangerous in all conditions. If you go off in a forest you end up in the trees which hurt much more than a run-off area or tyre wall. Plus in rallycross you are never more than about 200yards from marshals or medical help. Contact in rallycross is not inevitable - its usually down to bad driving or people driving cars beyond their experience or capability. And as has been said before its accidents in dry fast conditions that usually prove the most dangerous.

If you look back in my previous posts I've already offered some constructive suggestions about how to avoid this situation - including changing the tyre rules, talking to Lydden about drainage and asking for a review of spectator areas. I also suggested reducing the number of cars in finals when the weather is very bad.