[ELMS] ELMS 2015 Discussion

[Deleted]

Mr Ratel must be rubbing his hands together in the office now. Didn't he always say how much that GT3 category makes no sense in the series

[TheMightyM]

I haven't been following what Ratel says, but yeah it’s a little hard to see the point of GTC (=GT3) in ELMS.

ELMS exists in part to help fill the LM 24 grid, to provide an option for teams/gentlemen drivers that can’t afford the time and money of doing the WEC. But GT3s aren’t legal at Le Mans… so it’s a bit unclear why you’d run in ELMS GTC.

Obviously ELMS added GTC after the debacle that was 2012 to help fill the grid. The class is at an awkward stage now in the ELMS — I suppose that if you got enough GT3 cars into ELMS, the series would become a happening, and winning would be prestigious enough and worth contesting even without a direct Le Mans tie-in. It certainly looked like the class was headed in that direction last year, with respectable car counts for the class. And then most everyone in the class besded AF Corse didn’t back for 2015. OK, Formula Racing went and Marc VDS went up to GTE-Am. But the GTE-Am class also saw a lot of teams not come back… I would be very interested in hearing why teams choose not to return to the series.

[pach233]

I think GTC in the ELMS made the most sense when Blancpain was pushing 50 cars and teams/drivers were complaining about overcrowding and it being difficult to achieve a result. That being said, I'm guessing we'll see some race by race GTC entries and it makes sense for the three regional series (TUSC, ELMS, AsLMS) to have a class include the most widely used GT class in the world.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by pach233

I think GTC in the ELMS made the most sense when Blancpain was pushing 50 cars and teams/drivers were complaining about overcrowding and it being difficult to achieve a result. That being said, I'm guessing we'll see some race by race GTC entries and it makes sense for the three regional series (TUSC, ELMS, AsLMS) to have a class include the most widely used GT class in the world.

The logic though is a bit clearer in TUSC, as GTD is the Pro-Am GT class. The series also has in the Daytona 24, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans events that are prestigious in their own right. In ELMS, you have two Pro-Am GT classes, which is an issue, and no event stands out on its own.

ELMS GT is like a lot of things in the LM/WEC/ELMS universe, in that there aren’t any easy solutions, and that whatever you do is likely to be a tradeoff. The addition of P3 complicates matters. If the P3 grid grows, and ELMS GTE-Am had just a few more entries that it has this year (the extra garages that the ACO is talking about building at Le Mans will help), then maybe ELMS can do without a 2015-level GTC class.

[pach233]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

The logic though is a bit clearer in TUSC, as GTD is the Pro-Am GT class. The series also has in the Daytona 24, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans events that are prestigious in their own right. In ELMS, you have two Pro-Am GT classes, which is an issue, and no event stands out on its own.

ELMS GT is like a lot of things in the LM/WEC/ELMS universe, in that there aren’t any easy solutions, and that whatever you do is likely to be a tradeoff. The addition of P3 complicates matters. If the P3 grid grows, and ELMS GTE-Am had just a few more entries that it has this year (the extra garages that the ACO is talking about building at Le Mans will help), then maybe ELMS can do without a 2015-level GTC class.

Can't disagree with anything there. Regardless, having a bunch of healthy grids across various series is a good thing.

Looking through the entry lists I am left wondering, what is going on with the IMSA Performance team? I don't see them listed anywhere.

[Deleted]

Neveu on Autosport:
"It is not a problem that they [other entries] missed the deadline, because race-by-race entries can still score points under a modification we made to the sporting rules a couple of years ago."

Which begs to question why exactly do they have logical scoring system like this in the regional series, but the world championship has to suffer from the idiotic "only full season entries can score points"

[Coach Ep]

full story here http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117613

we should be expecting a couple more entries then.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Neveu on Autosport:
"It is not a problem that they [other entries] missed the deadline, because race-by-race entries can still score points under a modification we made to the sporting rules a couple of years ago."

Which begs to question why exactly do they have logical scoring system like this in the regional series, but the world championship has to suffer from the idiotic "only full season entries can score points"

because one's a european series, and the other is a full blown prestigious world championship... you don't want to be encouraging the likes of the guys who scrape together a budget race by race to compete in a big shiny competition that has fancy airfreight requirements. you only want fully-funded proper entries to that. i guess it also helps guarantee that the fully-funded serious entries won't lose out for entries to a team who don't have the money in place.

not saying it's right, but it makes sense.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by bella

because one's a european series, and the other is a full blown prestigious world championship... you don't want to be encouraging the likes of the guys who scrape together a budget race by race to compete in a big shiny competition that has fancy airfreight requirements. you only want fully-funded proper entries to that. i guess it also helps guarantee that the fully-funded serious entries won't lose out for entries to a team who don't have the money in place.

not saying it's right, but it makes sense.

I'm sorry but if full season entry cannot beat mere 'guest' - poor or rich - in their own game, it deserves to have less points.

As for the air freight
a) it only applies for the Asian+American events (that don't have sea freight)
b) I don't think guest entries necessarily even should be included in that freight, if there's no space then get your own transporting

Championship should always be encouraging other people to join in, unless you are a closed club for oil barons swimming in cash like F1. And with WEC there's still incentive to do the full thing since it gives the LM auto entry and logistics help

Another thing that makes no sense is guest entries being "invisible for the various classifications" as the regulations put it. Why?

It's been said many times, but last year's P2 result at LM was a freaking farce. As well as the fact that Jota would have been pretty damn high in the final combined overall classifications, but wasn't allowed

[TF110]

Theres always something.

[Deleted]

But it's a pro point for ELMS At least one of them gets it

[tux]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

I wonder what happened to Prospeed and Race Performance. Both of them looked likely to enter the ELMS (or WEC) with 1 or more cars, over the last few months.

Prospeed will be providing cars and technical support for Team AAIs Le Mans effort.

[pablocomics]

Originally Posted by tux

Prospeed will be providing cars and technical support for Team AAIs Le Mans effort.

Those cars are my first candidates for a withrawal (my second candidate is the byKolles)

[bella]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I'm sorry but if full season entry cannot beat mere 'guest' - poor or rich - in their own game, it deserves to have less points.

we're gonna have to disagree on this one, i think. all your points are totally sound and i agree, it seems a bit harsh and very protectionist (well it is french) but on balance they're doing the right thing.

encouraging local non-championship entries is fine, but you still don't want too many of them. if you start letting anyone join in you could end up with a car that only entered the european rounds (including lm) winning a class title like you point out with jota. that doesn't look very good, and it doesn't encourage people to stay committed to the series for the entirety either. you could argue it'd be taking entries away from the elms too. better to keep the two distinct and seperate for the health of both.

i'm not sure how relevant this is to anything but fwiw, on the air freight thing, flying a single car and the relevant amount of equipment from the uk-china *one way* is probably not that far off the cost of the season long wec entry fee. you could seafreight it for (approx) 1/10th of the cost, but you'd lose it for a minimum of 2 1/2 months for the round trip. both options are significantly more expensive going the other direction due to market demand.

[pablocomics]

Anyone knows where is the Graff Racing LMP2?
..and Race Performance?

[joeb]

The Ligier looks great in a variety of liveries:

http://www.algarveproracingteam.com/...7-2F7D94638A6F

[Mike E]

James Winslow confirmed alongside Adam Carroll and Michael Wainwright in the #86 Gulf Porsche. This car is also 4th reserve for Le Mans.

http://www.racetechmag.com/latest-ne...2015-elms.html

[Mike E]

JMW to confirm ELMS line up soon.

"On Sunday night we will be confirming our 3 ELMS drivers, just got to wait and make sure none of them killed Lucy Beale. See you then!"

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by Mike E

JMW to confirm ELMS line up soon.



"On Sunday night we will be confirming our 3 ELMS drivers, just got to wait and make sure none of them killed Lucy Beale. See you then!"

Line up is: George Richardson, Sam Tordoff and Robert Smith.

https://jmwmotorsport.kontribune.com/articles/5740

[Deleted]

Just to switch to ELMS for a second with Dagys' 2017 LMP2 scoop, because no matter what higher manufacturer presence will be retained in the world championship, as well as in USCC (to some extent) but with this series...

Just think how LMS was constructed circa 2004 towards end of the decade
LMP1 - factory & privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine/tire and no restrictions on drivers
LMP2 - privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine/tire and no restrictions on drivers
LMGT1 - factory & privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine/tire and no restrictions on drivers, very light BoP
LMGT2- factory & privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine/tire and no restrictions on drivers, very light BoP

And then 2015
LMP2 - privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine/tire (except cost cap & non modifying), pro-am driver limitations
LMP3 - privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis (except cost cap & non modifying), spec engine, spec tires, pro-am driver limitations
LMGTE - privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine (except for AM sub rules & freezed specs), spec tires, pro-am driver limitations, heavy BoP
GT3 - privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis/engine, spec tires, pro-am driver restrictions, heavy BoP

Which is still defendable but ->

Finally 2017 - Possible prospect
LMP2 - privateer teams, chassis options limited to 4, spec engine, spec tires, pro-am driver limitations
LMP3 - privateer teams, no restrictions on chassis (unless they change it), spec engine, spec tires, pro-am driver limitations
LMGT??? - pro-am and heavy BoP at the very least

Almost spec class as headliner is gonna provide extremely poor entertainment, say whatever you want about the P1-less & pro-am lower division structure now.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Almost spec class as headliner is gonna provide extremely poor entertainment, say whatever you want about the P1-less & pro-am lower division structure now.

So? ELMS at this point isn’t really in the business of providing entertainment. Tickets/paddock access at the four stand-alone events are either free or very cheap. Beyond that, a few thousand people watch online for free. So even if many of the existing fans decide that 2017 spec P2 cars are boring and don’t come, the impact on the series will be pretty trivial…

[Deleted]

True, for teams competing it won't change (well not unless the horrid class format itself throws the class into oblivion). SRO and many other European organizers have proved that 'business as usual' can work even if no-one outside gives a crap about the series. Customer service and whatever. And it's not like they had particularly better buzz ten years ago either (except at some of the curtainraiser 1000km events). But I wasn't talking about the impact for teams or the series itself, I was talking about the fan experience/interest itself, no matter how myriad it might be. The downgrade of everything, just as big of a 'dumping down' as it was for ALMS-USCC even if the scale is different.. It'd clearly be a downfall of epic proportions in that respect

[Mike E]

Nathannael Berthon to contest ELMS and LM with Murphy Prototypes, alonside his GP2 campaign.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117881

[LC2guy]

Lick Yelloly to Jota..

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117905

[bella]

amazing typo

that's a good signing. i'm not sure he has the potential of the tincknells and hartleys of the world but he's definitely better than his results suggest.