Audi LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

Knighty seems to think that according to what he's read about the Ricardo TorqStor flywheel, the magnetic coupling does away with the need for a vacuum pump or the need for the seals that have been a problem in the 24 hour races.

That's why Knighty suggested that Audi could have or could be making the switch to the TorqStor system if they haven't already.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm surprised that Nigel hasn't yet commented on the rumor that Knighty posed about Audi maybe switching flywheel supplier or at least looking at the Ricardo flywheel, which is similar to the Williams/GKN system but instead of using a vacuum pump to maintain a high pressure vacuum (important to the flywheel system's efficiency), they use either a magnetic or electro-magnetic coupling that doesn't need a high pressure vacuum.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the changes that Audi has made, and why they've been pretty secret about the 2015 car up to this point, aside from the bodywork/aero changes.

IMO, it's also odd how Toyota got papped at Algarve and for all their secrecy not only have a car that doesn't seem to have changes significantly compared to last year externally at least, but Audi have been working on this stuff since last spring, and have tested at least parts and bits since last fall, but not one photo or video has leaked out, and won't until probably at least this weekend, or this coming Monday; CTD even had admitted that within the past couple of days that Audi Sport has given press photos to the regional/national Audi distribution agents for release to the public on Tuesday.

Either Audi have done a good job of "hiding all the bodies" of would-be paparazzos, or security at their tests has been insanely tight, even tighter than at armed forces/military special forces bases or something like the Pentagon. Just really strange that Audi have been testing all this time, or transporting stuff to wind tunnels (like WindShear in North Carolina in the heart of NASCAR country) and other R&D facilities, and not one detail has thus far leaked aside from those that Audi have intentionally leaked, which has been basically nothing of serious note.

Don't put words in my mouth .
The national managers, has seen a photo of the car. All phones and photo equipment was confiscated before.
All I said is that the pictures exist, but is internal for Audi top guys only.
I have no idea when they are gonna launch them publicly, but only that the car will be shown at Geneva.

[chernaudi]

If the national distributors have seen the photos, the more than likely have been given to them over the course of recent days for distribution come Tuesday (not that it matters a ton--Audi will be on track at Sebring on Monday, hours, if not nearly a full day ahead of the Geneva launch).

And if they do already have the photos, they're obviously embargoed under a moratorium issued by Audi AG and Audi Sport that they're not to be leaked prior to Tuesday, and that any leak, intentional or not, and for sure intentional, will probably be punished swiftly and harshly, as in the person(s) responsible will likely be either sacked or demoted to sweeping floors at an Audi dealer swiftly and harshly.

But then again, you do have to wonder about the secrecy, as in would the 2015 generation R18 be breaking new ground in aero concepts, or have they changed up stuff with the hybrid system beyond just simply uprating the system to 4MJ spec (such as the switch from Williams/GKN to the Ricardo TorqStor flywheel as Knighty has hinted at should Ricardo--who still have ties to Audi and Audi Sport--have offered it to Audi Sport).

Or are Audi just really gun-shy about being so open about the R18 last year that they felt that they spilled too many secrets too fast, and hence have pulled about as much of a 180 that Audi could do and still be somewhat upfront and approachable about the program?

Until Tuesday, about the only guys who know about what's going on are Audi Sport Boss Wolfgang Ulrich--the mastermind of this whole operation--, Audi Sport LMP1 program chief Chris Rinke, Audi and Volkswagen Group higher ups such as Volkswagen Group Chairman and CEO Martin Wintercorn (who was Audi CEO and Chairman prior to becoming overall CEO and Chairman for VAG) and Rupert Stadler (current Audi CEO and Chairman), guys who feel no urge to speak until they feel that the time's right for them to speak out on the car.

Everyone else, be it mechanics, drivers, and the national/regional distribution agency bosses, as you've hinted at, have been sworn to secrecy until Tuesday's press conference at the Geneva Motorshow. If Audi have released photos to those agencies for release come Tuesday in advance, you can bet that they're protected under a major embargo or moratorium on their release, as in that Audi and Audi Sport pretty much have the right to fire, demote, or even sue anyone who leaks the photos, especially on purpose, without their prior permission before Tuesday.

[CTD]

Nope, it has not been given to them, only shown briefly .

But yes, let it rest, we can wait the last 7 days and it we will all know!

[chernaudi]

In today's world and with how most people think nowadays, transparency is everything and it should be a good thing, even if the news that comes out of it isn't great. But silence and the absence of fact or things to lead us to a direction of what's going on does breed suspicion and wonder. And, of course, silence does breed rumors instead of the "no news is good news" approach that Audi Sport have adopted so far.

Naturally, the silence that Audi have had thus far with the '15 R18 does breed wonder over what they're doing, whether they're being secret to limit how much the competition finds out before Audi want them to find it out for themselves, or if Audi are doing something "ground-breaking" with the revised car.

Hell, to be honest, the thing that most astounds me is how have Audi been able to keep this whole shebang a near-total secret for the best part of a year?! Audi have admitted that they started actual design work for the new car back in early May of last year around the time of the Spa 6 Hours. That's almost 10 months ago. And they probably were thinking of proposals for changes and alterations even before that as well, I'm guessing at least around the time of Silverstone last April.

I just think that it's absolutely phenomenal that Audi have kept this thing in the dark for nearly a year with the only minimal leaks being ones that they themselves have orchestrated.

And I personally hope, whatever it is that they're keeping under wraps, is worth all the ball busting that they've done to keep it a surprise out on the track.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by CTD

But yes, let it rest, we can wait the last 7 days and it we will all know!

B-but, what about speculation and argument?

More than a few people (myself included) have said Audi were unusually naive with their more open approach last year, especially given the details of the equivalence process. It wouldn't be surprising to see them shut up shop for this reason alone, but with Audi's typically conservative approach I don't think they're hiding anything groundbreaking.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by knighty

While talking about new hybrid tech on the Audi thread, I just stumbled across this link below, Ricardo launched it about 4 years ago as a concept called KinerStor, basically another Flywheel energy storage system.......now, as of December 2014, it seems to have been developed into a credible working demonstrator and re-named TorqStor.

If I was a betting man I can imagine Ricardo are pushing this TorqStor to their chums in the Audi LMP1 team, as the GKN-WHP flywheel system seems to have been nothing but trouble, from what I hear its due to the complex sealing systems and vacuum pump failures, plus Baretzky does seem highly reluctant to entertain anything with batteries.

My understanding is the Ricardo TorqStor solution uses a magnetic coupling to transfer energy from inside the vacuum chamber to the outside world, therefore does not require a complex sealing system, so doesn't need a vacuum pump system, like Flybrid or GKN-WHP use, hence saving a lot of weight and complexity, so dare I say potentially more reliable......0.25 to 4MJ would easily cover and LMP1 installation up to 8MJ, but it would be interesting to know the energy to system weight ratio.

Ricardo are a highly credible powertrain technology company, I know for a fact they do a lot of consulting work for Audi both on racing and road projects.

http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/News--M...-to-the-rails/

.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Knighty seems to think that according to what he's read about the Ricardo TorqStor flywheel, the magnetic coupling does away with the need for a vacuum pump or the need for the seals that have been a problem in the 24 hour races.

That's why Knighty suggested that Audi could have or could be making the switch to the TorqStor system if they haven't already.

I realize that I had a copy in my files of a "Case Study" published by Ricardo back in 2009 specifically discussing high-speed flywheel applications and Ricardo's Kinergy product (as it was called at the time). This Case Study was published in Ricardo's Quarterly Review Magazine of December 2009 (pp. 22-27).

On paper at least, the completely-sealed flywheel chamber and the omission of the typical vacuum pump necessary to maintain vacuum as in the more "conventional" flywheel solutions, indeed appears to be an attractive feature, but one may wonder why this seemingly "superior" technology has not already found its way in motorsport applications. Could it be that inherent losses of the magnetic coupling are too important ? In the aforementioned Case Study, Ricardo do state that the magnetic "gear" (coupling) is configured to give a reduction factor of 10:1, meaning that the output shaft of the flywheel unit revolves at a speed that is ten times slower than that of the flywheel, this to "significantly reduce windage losses".

Talking about energy density, the current WHP/GKN flywheel unit used by Audi is understood to have a storage capacity of the order of 600kJ for an estimated weight of approximately 40kg (it's unclear however if this includes the associated vacuum pump system), i.e. an energy density of the order of 15 kJ/kg.

In their Motorsport Brochure, Ricardo claim (see page 17) that the Kinergy unit developed for F1 applications has a storage capacity of 400kJ for a quoted weight of 38kg, which looks comparatively "heavy". They do also claim however that "future systems" could offer a storage capacity of 1MJ for a quoted weight of 52kg, which would be a reasonable improvement over the solution currently used by Audi. Now, the question is whether such a 1MJ unit is available in practice from Ricardo.

[YorkshireLad]

Ive never been interested in these flywheel systems, but after reading the last few pages on this thread I've become very intrigued.. any links to pages which maybe useful to me in learning more?

Also why did 'H' leave i knew he was going but why.. retirement or to be closer to the family?

[J Jay]

On the second point, it seems he wants to build Progressive's brand outside of their relationship with Audi. I seem to remember reading this (as opposed to stepping back for family reasons) at the time this was announced.

[chernaudi]

The TorqStor system that Knighty has mentioned as of late last year has evolved drastically over the original 2009 version.

Getting rid of the vacuum pump and complex seals alone would drop the weight for sure. The biggest thing is reliability. Audi probably chose 2MJ last year knowing that the lightweight WHP/GKN flywheel, though capable of storing and releasing much more power, if there was a seal issue and Audi were running in a higher MJ category, their car performance was going to take a much bigger hit than if they stayed at 2MJ.

And when one considers that part of Lotterer's mega-stint at LM last year were done with a flywheel system whose performance wasn't quite to to snuff, that was a smart move for Audi, but the goal posts have moved, and they need more hybrid power to stay competitive, among other changes that have been rumored or hinted at. Toyota, even if they're staying at 6MJ as has been rumored, have been nearly 2 seconds a lap faster at most of the places that they've tested at with a car that hasn't had any major changes aside from typical yearly evolutionary changes. Granted, at least 1 second of that is due to better tires, as Michelin are able to apply knowledge gained from last year to make more durable by never the less faster tires. But at Toyota's end, they know how to more effectively use the hybrid system and combine that with better tires and typical car development, that's how much the goal posts have moved, and Audi knew, even early last season it seemed, that they'd have to move their goal post far ahead to match Toyota and Porsche, let alone have any serious chance of out-performing them.

Hence, the rumors of significantly revised bodywork for the sprint races and a beefed up hybrid system along with changes to increase power and efficiency of the diesel engine itself. Good news, the reveal of the R18 is only a few days away. Bad news, the reveal of the R18 is a few days away.

But Audi knew that in part because of the EOT BOP, and because of them going overboard with their sprint race package as far as downforce and especially drag, Audi knew that they had a lot of things to look at to address the balance of performance on their end. And for the hybrid system, either Audi have switched to the Ricardo TorqStor, or WHP/GKN and Audi have made major improvements to their flywheel technology in terms of performance and reliability.

After all, there has to be a reason to this veil of secrecy that Audi have imposed and why they've gone to some pretty big lengths to keep as much of this in the shadows as possible. Just the fact that they've done so well with keeping us and the motorsports press and media in the shade about this is hugely impressive in my book, considering what Audi have been rumored to be doing with testing and R&D activities and how some of it seemed to be counter intuitive to keeping a shroud of secrecy--granted, non-disclosure agreements where if someone leaks stuff Audi Sport can sue them over it are probably a good counter measure. But this does all hint at some major changes and performance-minded enhancements going on, even if it's just a beefed up hybrid system and revised bodywork.

And considering that they've worked on this since at least May of last year, these changes have been a long time coming and hopefully Audi will be in a lot better shape performance-wise across the board, rather than being fast only at Le Mans, Silverstone, COTA and Sao Paulo.

[MyNameIsNigel]

However, Ricardo have yet to demonstrate application of their TorqStor system in a racecar. The TorqStor system is being showcased in a heavy-duty vehicle (namely a High-Efficiency Excavator) and weight constraints are evidently not so much of an issue in such applications.

Besides, there is an advantage that the WHP/GKN flywheel unit has over the Ricardo device, namely the fact that the WHP/GKN flywheel unit already integrates a motor/generator unit for electrical energy conversion to and from the flywheel storage unit. Such a motor/generator unit would have to be added in the case of the Ricardo device in order to properly fit in the hybrid architecture used by Audi where the flywheel energy storage unit is exploited to power an electrical MGU on the front drive train. That means additional weight that would at least partly offset the absence of the vacuum pump system.

[chernaudi]

Unless Williams/GKN have made major improvements over the past year to the sealing technology and reliability of the vacuum pump or Audi are entertaining using a partially battery-based storage system, I'd have to say that the WHP/GKN flywheel in it's current form is a developmental dead end.

Unless WHP/GKN have improved the reliability and effectiveness of the vacuum pump and chamber seals, or they're looking at integrating something like the Ricardo magnetic coupling in addition or in redundancy to the current vacuum systems, or Audi themselves have made improvements in those areas, I'd give Audi one more year of putting up with the flywheel issues (especially if this stands a chance to cost them a win at LM this year) before moving on to something else for 2016.

[chernaudi]

At least for the test weather will be looking good. It's supposed to be dry and hot all next week in Sebring.

[MyNameIsNigel]

It's pretty safe to say that we will be experiencing the last season of a flywheel storage unit in an Audi race car. Audi are likely going to switch to battery-based energy storage next year.

It's worth reminding that Audi have set up their own High-Voltage Battery Project House back in 2012 and have likely developed reasonable experience in this field with their various e-tron projects. It would therefore be logical to expect them to translate this experience in the 2016 R18.

That would be a further "motivation" to stick with an evolution of the current WHP/GKN flywheel unit in 2015 IMHO.

[chernaudi]

Or could Audi be developing their own flywheel system? They've worked with the Williams/GKN system, and obviously probably know about the Flybrid and Ricardo solutions.

We all know that Audi have been using the flywheel system because it's basically a bolt-on system, and it's light weight for the power it can generate and store. Batteries are heavy, even with the advances that Audi have made with their own e-tron electric and hybrid cars, as well as the advances made by others.

So I can see Audi to save weight using a system that's part flywheel, part battery, and as you've mentioned, Audi do have their own factory and R&D facility in Inglostadt (or Neckarsulm?) for high voltage electrical generator and storage systems for electrically powered or hybrid powered vehicles. So it's safe to say that they're probably developing a battery or ultracapacitor storage system for use in motorsports, and they might even be developing their own flywheel system as well if they want to continue down that route.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Or could Audi be developing their own flywheel system? They've worked with the Williams/GKN system, and obviously probably know about the Flybrid and Ricardo solutions.

Thinking back to all the rumors that Audi were going to F1. Sounds like F1 has come to Audi and the WEC. The excitement is in endurance prototypes these days, IMO.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

It's pretty safe to say that we will be experiencing the last season of a flywheel storage unit in an Audi race car. Audi are likely going to switch to battery-based energy storage next year.

It's worth reminding that Audi have set up their own High-Voltage Battery Project House back in 2012 and have likely developed reasonable experience in this field with their various e-tron projects. It would therefore be logical to expect them to translate this experience in the 2016 R18.

That would be a further "motivation" to stick with an evolution of the current WHP/GKN flywheel unit in 2015 IMHO.

Totally agree, the flywheel episode will soon die off, then a battery based project will then have nice marketing parallels with their road-car program technologies which are using lithium-ion ans ultra-caps in various sizes and forms......like I have said before the flywheel technology is not relevant to passenger cars, its first application will be busses and trucks, hardly Audis core product!

[Jetinder]

Hello all

I thought I'd chirp in (been reading this thread quietly). Is there any benefit in using the electric turbo in the the LMP1 car ? I realise the current turbo is pretty advanced, but could it be considered for the 2015 car ? It definately maps to current road technology (with 3.0 TDI prologue concept at Geneva next week and the Q7 hybrid in 2016 ish).

cheers

Jet

[knighty]

not really, the electric supercharger is for off-boost events, like when you are pulling away from idle at the traffic lights, or coming out of a very tight low speed bend which do not feature on any race tracks....... with the race car the drivers will always keep the engine very much on-boost, also the VGT mechanism in the single turbo really does seem to bridge the drive-ability gap......the LMP1 teams also probably shudder at the thought of injecting in any more precious fuel to help with drive-ability issues, hence a KERS type traction motor system is now preferred, the penalty being they are VERY heavy!

[Jetinder]

So it makes sense to wait for bleeding edge battery tech to mature e.g carbon carbon, before going down that route, and hope the weight/energy density will be favourable for racing.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Jetinder

Hello all

I thought I'd chirp in (been reading this thread quietly). Is there any benefit in using the electric turbo in the the LMP1 car ? I realise the current turbo is pretty advanced, but could it be considered for the 2015 car ? It definately maps to current road technology (with 3.0 TDI prologue concept at Geneva next week and the Q7 hybrid in 2016 ish).

cheers

Jet

For Audi most certainly yes (2 prime reasons)

1) diesel combustion is quicker and more energetic in the release, in proportion to how much air density is in cylinder... meaning having a larger cylinder an so more fuel to burn each stroke, it doesn't mean it takes more time to burn all, specially if your engine is turbocharged. Matter of fact it can take less time comparatively to a diesel NA that is much smaller in volume... and is a characteristic that is kind of orthogonal to the 'lean' or 'rich' stoichiometry or air/fuel... the more air, the more dense the air, the more the relative charge compression ratio, the more efficient and quicker the combustion...
(why turbodiesel nowadays don't have the smoke (particulate matter) they used to have(relative inefficient)... why they are so economic for the levels of power generated... and why there can't be diesel engines in motorsports without forced admission(turbo))

... so obviously an electric acceleration of the 'turbine' at lower revs, tends to augment the efficiency and power of the engine at those lower revs (can be significant.. and something that was clearly lacking at the slower circuits for Audi)

2) 'Exhaust pumping losses'... the power stroke in diesels engines is very energetic, generates double the Mean Effective Pressure of a petrol engine... the exhaust stroke can be a problem, if there is not proper exhaust manifold and there is any kind of 'impedements' or unsuitable exhaust geometry of pipes... the back pressure can be significant, more than in petrol engines, specially at lower revs (something that the Audi 2014 seems to have had)

.. so obviously an electric acceleration of the 'turbine' specially at lower revs, tends to have a 'suction effect' on the exhaust pipes and so alleviate tremendously any 'back pressure' issues.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Jetinder

So it makes sense to wait for bleeding edge battery tech to mature e.g carbon carbon, before going down that route, and hope the weight/energy density will be favourable for racing.

Electric turbo and batteries are completely orthogonal.

The problem is that a ERS-H like in F1, and which the R18 2014 supposed to have had, is perhaps not the best config for a diesel engine. At least the 'hybrid rules' complicate a lot the possible configs.

The best approach for 'energy recuperation' is like Porsche, an exhaust alternator which is a switched reluctance electric machine ( i think, if not it could be)... and since is a electric machine on a wastegate it could be a motor and a generator (Porsche is only generator). But being in a wastegate bypass means its closed at lower revs, negating all the advantages exposed above(can't be a motor, makes no sense).

If the intention is having a lot of energy harvesting, specially for putting all the engine ancillary on electric means to augment efficiency ... instead of a single VGT it could be a triple "turbine" multi-geometry with one compressor... having no wastegate, and so being the larger turbines (possibly VTG ) one each side of the V of the engine having the possibility of 'electric acceleration" but functioning most of the time like exhaust alternators... and being the turbine coupled to the compressor and intermediate size and no VTG, being the effect of VTG addressed by the other 2 turbines...

But this would probably mean the actual R18 2014 engine config of exhaust for top inside the V of engine, and double admission on the outside of the V of the engine...

... would most probably have to be reverted (double exhaust outside, single admission inside V), and is so because an exhaust on top of V with an electric machine, means an 'impediment' because the exhaust pipes must be inherently short, and 'back pressure' would be huge, even or specially at higher revs, situation which a outside of V config can address by having the possibility or larger and much more longer pipes ' ... the same problem could occur with a F1 like ERS-H turbo (short exhaust pipes on top of V), not only with a multi-gemetry turbo... a 'big config problem' that must change everything on the engine config...

Was an idea... but since no one is copying F1, there must be a reason for which the rules are not innocent... and there are reasons why Audi didn't presented a ERS-H with 'electric turbo compounding' in 2014 (though IT MISS IT A LOT )... the all matter can be much much more complicated than meets the eye...

[chernaudi]

Not exactly R18 related, but the new R18 it seems will also be joined at Geneva by the next generation R8 LMS GT3 car. Audi Sport confirmed the R8 GT3 will be there on their Twitter and Facebook pages.

[chernaudi]

Audi and Nissan are on the ground at Sebring according to Sportscar 365. Only photo related to Audi so far is that of their paddock complex. And Audi are doing what they have been doing--keeping as much hidden as they possibly can until the car hits the track. Audi paddock area is on the far side of the track's infield and currently closed to anyone who isn't a member of Audi Sport personnel.

[chernaudi]

Extra tidbit from Endurance Info's article on the Audi and Nissan test set up: Though there's supposed to be a R18 at Geneva it seems and it'll be part of a major Audi Sport press launch that will also apparently include the new Audi R8 LMS (based on the recently released second generation R8 road car), it seems that a smaller scale press lanuch is scheduled for some time tomorrow during the test, as Audi have invited some members of the automotive and motorsports press to Sebring tomorrow morning.