LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[FLGTFAN]

Wow, that is insane. LMP1-L offers the same, and perhaps better opportunity as LMP1-H???

It just hasn't been discovered.

[TF110]

The factory cars have to run hybrids. So no 'manufacturer' teams in P1-'L'. Maybe that changes in the future, but I dont see it.

[Starfish Primer]

I don´t like the new regulations but I guess that manufacturers feeding only one team has raised some questions on price cap avoidance. Strakka-Dome have been testing during a whole year and had to redesign the car, I don´t see how after that initial investment they are going to make the car profitable with the price cap (unless they are ignoring it and running on loss=).

[ger80]

The cost cap anyway covers only the cost to produce the car and not the development, right? It's there to protect teams from having to buy an expensive RS Spyder, not to protect the chassis supplier at least until now

[Starfish Primer]

The development cost should be reflected on the final price and spread across all the units sold.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

The development cost should be reflected on the final price and spread across all the units sold.

But since there is no way to police this, there is very much a possibility of some wealthy individuals doing an end run around the cost cap, by developing a superior car that would be far exceeding the cap and sucking up the losses.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

But since there is no way to police this, there is very much a possibility of some wealthy individuals doing an end run around the cost cap, by developing a superior car that would be far exceeding the cap and sucking up the losses.

And this is why I think they want to reduce the number of manufacturers, to avoid mavericks running on a loss.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

And this is why I think they want to reduce the number of manufacturers, to avoid mavericks running on a loss.

But they all still go through the homologation process and can not be altered, as well as BoP being applied. So that is a non starter IMO.








L.P.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

But they all still go through the homologation process and can not be altered, as well as BoP being applied. So that is a non starter IMO.

L.P.

Not being able to alter the cars after homologation doesn't matter, if you manage to homologate a world beater. And BoP (should it ever even be applied to protos) is a very imperfect process as evidenced by the GT3 performance and tech creep.

[Rcz]

So guys think the manufacturers are going over the cost cappeds rules?

I bet the ACO is definitely suspicious that their are, and since they view those cars as mere feeder and training cars.

You can count on it that the class will probably be completely spec by the next decade.

If IMSA becomes the sold series in the world with pure P2 cars, I wonder if they will be allowed to change them from original spec. Like speeding them up like increasing HP and lowering weight.

[Rodger Davies]

The secondary class has always become something different to what the ACO originally intended it to be though, but that should not matter when the class itself is actually doing fine. For example, P675 was originally supposed to be light cars that could fight for the overall, but it became a gentleman driver class. Then they changed it to be more focused to privateers and along came Porsche and Acura and started winning overall. I would argue the current iteration has been one of the most successful at achieving its aim (cost capped, Pro-Am), but now the suggestion is that the cost cap has been ignored? Well it's not like it's done any major damage to Ligier or Oreca sales, that I can see. Maybe the ACO know something we don't about how the Dome or HPD or Lola-Mazda or BR01 will trounce everyone this season, but I can't see it happening myself.

One thing I hate about anything that goes out to tender in this way is how open to corruption and bias it is. Sure, it might be fine at the moment, but it opens it up to a 'you scratch our back and we'll scratch yours' attitude in future.

[YorkshireLad]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

I don´t like the new regulations but I guess that manufacturers feeding only one team has raised some questions on price cap avoidance. Strakka-Dome have been testing during a whole year and had to redesign the car, I don´t see how after that initial investment they are going to make the car profitable with the price cap (unless they are ignoring it and running on loss=).

Apparently strakka spent a serious amount of money on this project, been a new car they've had lots of problems, not getting through crash tests, redesigning doors them didn't they crash at spa? building up to an costly end product.

It initially was very cost effective but since, well a year or so ago it's cost them... Maybe they might have to start making and selling some merchandise, to start recouping some cash back.

[Rodger Davies]

Especially with only 2 years' eligibility until they're forced to buy a Ligier.....

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer : "The development cost should be reflected on the final price and spread across all the units sold." Right, but how can a comapny know how many unites it will eventually sell, in order to calculate developments portion of the sales price?

Suppose (as with Dome) the entire car is built but has to be scrapped? Suppose a prototype is built and a fire at the factory destroys not only the car but all the computers so every bit of design data is lost?

Suppose a team takes out insurance against that; is dev cost figured using the amount the policy paid or the cost of the policy?

The only thing that I see it as being sensible to control is sale price. And if the whole idea is to make it cheaper for the teams to race, than that is all that needs to be capped. Let the factories produce their best, and let the teams race.

Not even sure this limit on constructors is legal; the selection process is sure to cause some friction. and in 2020 when all the factories decide RoI is now shrinking and they all pull out ... we will be googling that Santayana quote and sticking it in our posts. Nature programs about the wild sports car series will be explaining that the life span of a modern series is between eight and fifteen years; WEC, lasting until 2022, was representative.

[Speed-King]

Let the factories produce their best, and let the teams race.

The problem is that some "factories" (constructors, really) are more equal than others. Some, like Oreca, are run to make a profit - while others really don't care about that since they are essentially the vanity project of some billionaire. I am looking at you, SMP.

From all the between the lines stuff that has come out in the last week, I am pretty sure the proposal to limit the number of constructors comes from Oreca and perhaps Onroak, precisely because they are afraid of limited availability/screw-the-price-cap-specials. And I don't think it's entirely self-serving, either. Oreca and Onroak are the backbone of the P2-class right now, should they be forced out by one/offs, the effects for the overall health of the class would be rather dramatic.

[Mike E]

Here are some Pannullo drawings of Gibson vs Zytek.

http://lemansprototypes.over-blog.it...bson-015s.html

[YorkshireLad]

Are only closed cockpit allowed this year in lmp2 or will we still see open tops?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Are only closed cockpit allowed this year in lmp2 or will we still see open tops?

Open tops are still allowed and there should be the Gibson, Morgan, and Oreca 03's still on the grid.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The problem is that some "factories" (constructors, really) are more equal than others. Some, like Oreca, are run to make a profit - while others really don't care about that since they are essentially the vanity project of some billionaire. I am looking at you, SMP.

From all the between the lines stuff that has come out in the last week, I am pretty sure the proposal to limit the number of constructors comes from Oreca and perhaps Onroak, precisely because they are afraid of limited availability/screw-the-price-cap-specials.

SMP, building a screw-the-cost car, is not planning to build multiples, though, as far as I heard And with a low-budget spec tub anyway, that really wouldn't be an option anyway--when there is almost nothing allowed to be different, there is no room to spend billions for an edge---look at Daytona prototypes.

I'd say Onroak and Oreca were okay with this decision because they knew they would be two of the four, and lobbied for it not to keep from being beat by a high-budget Frankenstein monster, but to get the cash pie cut into fewer parts. Orteca, Onroak, HPD and Riley (I assume) can count on probably decent pieces of the entire WEC, ELMS, TUSC, P2 grid .... Coyote, Dallara, Gibson, SMP, and whoever else won't get any, which means about twice as much for the remaining four.

I'd imagine the chosen four didn't object at all, Dallara has plenty of business and only had one TUSC chassis, while the smaller builders didn't have any clout or any voice.

In any case, it is the spec tub and engine, not the limited constructor pool, which troubles me most.

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

SMP, building a screw-the-cost car, is not planning to build multiples, though, as far as I heard And with a low-budget spec tub anyway, that really wouldn't be an option anyway--when there is almost nothing allowed to be different, there is no room to spend billions for an edge---look at Daytona prototypes.

I'd say Onroak and Oreca were okay with this decision because they knew they would be two of the four, and lobbied for it not to keep from being beat by a high-budget Frankenstein monster, but to get the cash pie cut into fewer parts. Orteca, Onroak, HPD and Riley (I assume) can count on probably decent pieces of the entire WEC, ELMS, TUSC, P2 grid .... Coyote, Dallara, Gibson, SMP, and whoever else won't get any, which means about twice as much for the remaining four.

I'd imagine the chosen four didn't object at all, Dallara has plenty of business and only had one TUSC chassis, while the smaller builders didn't have any clout or any voice.

In any case, it is the spec tub and engine, not the limited constructor pool, which troubles me most.

Trying to understand why hpd would be one if the engine ends up being a spec v8?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by schmidder

Trying to understand why hpd would be one if the engine ends up being a spec v8?

Again, there are 'options' for that. Morand-SARD's Oak-Pescarolo-Judd/BMW has been renamed Morgan-SARD so the engine name has been removed completely. HPD could just ask ACO to call it HPD ARX-05 and never to mention the engine name. Or, or, they directly rebrand the Nissan as Honda and go their merry way as HPD ARX-05 Honda, just as people have been doing in the past. Big public doesn't care if the names are fake. Most in LMP2 are anyway.

It's nonsense but then again so many things are. Particularly now...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

SMP, building a screw-the-cost car, is not planning to build multiples, though, as far as I heard And with a low-budget spec tub anyway, that really wouldn't be an option anyway--when there is almost nothing allowed to be different, there is no room to spend billions for an edge---look at Daytona prototypes.

If anything, it would be less of a problem, if SMP made their hypothetical world beater freely available... And DPs (Gen 1) are actually a great example of one constructor crowding out all the others, but at least the Riley was freely available.

In any case, it is the spec tub and engine, not the limited constructor pool, which troubles me most.

I might be wrong, but I don't think the spec tub is part of the proposal anymore... see Oreca's reference of being able to use the 05 tub beyond 2017...

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I might be wrong, but I don't think the spec tub is part of the proposal anymore... see Oreca's reference of being able to use the 05 tub beyond 2017...

And how do we know that ORECA will not be the spec tub supplier?








L.P.

[TF110]

Stephane Sarrazin was testing the Oreca 05 @ Ricard. http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/o...t-paul-ricard/

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Or, or, they directly rebrand the Nissan as Honda and go their merry way as HPD ARX-05 Honda, just as people have been doing in the past. Big public doesn't care if the names are fake. Most in LMP2 are anyway.

It's nonsense but then again so many things are. Particularly now...

HPD isn't interested in the rebadging BS: http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...=&limitstart=1

“If it’s a normally-aspirated V8 that would be rebadged, we have no interest,” said HPD vice president Steve Eriksen.