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Old 6 Mar 2006, 20:23 (Ref:1537513)   #1
dtype38
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Trail Braking and Gears - which foot where?

First off, I understand the principle of trail braking. I used it for years in karts and then, when I graduated to cars, I had a clutchless box so it was just like driving a kart, left foot braking. I spent many a happy corner coming progressively off the brake as the apex approached and blending in the power for a balanced set and a quick exit.... but now I'm in a car with gears and I can't get my head round what to do with my feet.

If I'm not actually downshifting into a corner, then it's not a problem, I just left foot brake. If I have to go down gears though, that means using the clutch and toe and heel'ing in the braking zone. That means I have my right foot on the brake, so to trail brake I have to keep it there all the way into the apex. But how do I blend in on the power to balance the back end (I've got rear wheel drive) and set the suspension for getting the power down.

Any thoughts from anyone who does this as a matter of course?
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 05:27 (Ref:1537719)   #2
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djb should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddjb should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddjb should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddjb should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
sorry to be replying only with bike experience on track (where it is definately easier to blend a two-finger brake bleeding off combined with the proper wrist blip transistion to power up) but wouldn't it be a question of a slightly bigger blip to give a smidge more time to properly bleed off the toe braking to settle the car before having to roll your foot back onto the throttle?

(yes, I know, couch racer opinion, but I'm very curious, as when I raced bikes at a very amateur level, I was pretty good at late trail braking and it helped made up for a slow bike. Being on two wheels with one drive wheel heeled over was a very good incentive to being smooth and not upsetting the rear end, less "bounce bounce, ouch ouch" moments...

cheers
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 09:12 (Ref:1539404)   #3
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The simple answer AFAICS is that unless you are left foot braking (and that does become tricky if you have gears to worry about) then you are never on the brakes and the throttle at the same time (as you might be in a kart or something with a clutchless box).

I find that the best you can do is to get into the habit of coming off the brake smoothly (dont snap off the brake as this upsets the car which is what we're trying to avoid) and then get onto a balanced throttle as quickly as possible. Dont just hang your foot over a closed throttle, but get the habit of instantly applying enough throttle to maintain speed and/or settle the back end.

I've found in the past several occasions where I thought the car had nightmare mid/early corner oversteer that it was actually cos I was coasting into the apex with a closed throttle. Your naive instinct says that you should stay off the throttle or brake for longer (especially if the car is trying to swap ends on you), but what the car actually needs is a slipper full of throttle (not a boot full, mind!) to settle the rear.

This is one of those skills that you can practice on the road all day in perfect safety, along with smooth braking and taking a steady line through each corner.

G
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 15:49 (Ref:1539637)   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonG
The simple answer AFAICS is that unless you are left foot braking (and that does become tricky if you have gears to worry about) then you are never on the brakes and the throttle at the same time (as you might be in a kart or something with a clutchless box).
I'm frequently on the brakes and throttle at the same time without left-foot braking; in fact, I'm on the brakes and throttle simultaneously at pretty much every entry to a turn that requires a downshift. This is exactly what heel-and-toe downshifts do: right foot hard on the brake while blipping the throttle to smooth out the shift and settle the rear. This works with trail braking, too, though I can't claim to be adept at that myself.

Having said that, it is very different from left-foot braking, at which I am even more clueless.
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 16:04 (Ref:1539645)   #5
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Dave

Fair point - I heel and toe myself. I was indicating (with admittedly sloppy language) that you are basically never on the power and the brakes simultaneously - heel and toe only uses the power with the clutch in (not driving the car forward against the brakes unless you get it wrong!), and we're only talking about a blip. When you come off the brakes and onto the power, there is not an overlap of the 2.

G
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 16:13 (Ref:1539653)   #6
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djb - yes exactly. I know what you mean from when I used to have a road bike and the "two fingers on the brake and roll the throttle on with your palm and little finger" is exactly the effect I'm looking for.

Gordon - I presently keep my braking in a straight line, then come up off it gently as I turn in and and immediately onto a balanced throttle to keep the car stable into the apex. I find this very effective at keeping up good apex and exit speed. The big down side, and what I'm trying to get rid of, is that my relatively old fashioned "straight line" braking means I'm on them earlier than people who trail brake and that leaves me vulnerable to overtaking in the braking areas. I obviously switch to defensive lines if this is a danger, but that just wastes overall track speed.

That's interesting Dave, it hadn't occured to me to go into the corner in the toe-and-heel postition. That could actually be the equivalent of what djb is doing with his right hand.... but sounds tricky to keep good control over the back end while bleeding off the brake pedal. Might be possible by resetting the height of the brake and throttle pedals. Would need a bit of a compromise with toe-heel heights (full braking) though. Definitely food for thought though
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 16:19 (Ref:1539656)   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonG
Dave

Fair point - I heel and toe myself. I was indicating (with admittedly sloppy language) that you are basically never on the power and the brakes simultaneously - heel and toe only uses the power with the clutch in (not driving the car forward against the brakes unless you get it wrong!), and we're only talking about a blip. When you come off the brakes and onto the power, there is not an overlap of the 2.

G
That's not stricly true Gordon. I think you'll find many a rally driver who is very familiar with using brakes and throttle together. For circuit racing the dividing line is much finer, but if you aren't brake temperature limited, then using the throttle against the brake in a rear wheel drive car can be very useful for adjusting the attitude of the car mid corner. Ideally, of course, this shouldn't be necessary, but if you get understeer or oversteer on the brakes into a corner, the throttle can be quite a handy get-out-of-jail-free card for getting the car turned by the right amount.
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 20:41 (Ref:1539788)   #8
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In my first post I wrote "unless you are left foot braking" which is the way rally drivers use the brake adn throttle together, not heel and toe.

G
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Old 7 Mar 2006, 23:18 (Ref:1539898)   #9
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Ooops. Sorry....
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Old 13 Mar 2006, 11:16 (Ref:1547016)   #10
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During the GP in Bahrain yesterday Massa did a great job showing what can go wrong when you trail brake a little too hard as you turn in. And it all happens very quickly!!
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Old 13 Mar 2006, 16:51 (Ref:1547259)   #11
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I had the very same accident as Massa at Rockingham into the first hairpin. I trail brake but sometimes you can get caught out....
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Old 13 Mar 2006, 17:12 (Ref:1547271)   #12
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Perhaps I won't be giving it a try after all.
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Old 14 Mar 2006, 13:23 (Ref:1547971)   #13
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It has to be said that as formula 1 cars slow down the downforce reduces considerably - and Massa was in 'dirty air' anyway. Had the brake bias been a little more to the front - perheps better optimsed for trail braking - it might all have been different. So don't give up on it - it should be ithe quickest way round a corner as you are using nearly all the grip the tyres can give. Even using 50% of the possible amount of brake force that could be used without locking up should result in slightly later braking and a quicker lap time - just don't go for the max! Just practice a lot where and when it is safe to do so. I wouldn't recommend the public highway!
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Old 14 Mar 2006, 17:24 (Ref:1548161)   #14
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I wasn't completely serious there Thanks for the encouragement though.

Regarding the maximum use of the grip available, I think trail braking may mean a complete shift in my driving style to take advantage. With my more 'classic' style and a rudimentary knowledge of traction circles, I aim to go "straight, wide and deep" into corners to make the best of my straight line braking. I then turn quite firmly carrying as much speed as I can from a late turn in to a late apex. This is to take as much advantage as possible of the lateral grip available. I feed the power back in the moment I start coming off steering lock, often before I've actually reached the apex, to get maximum exit speed and minimise my losses against more powerful cars. This all works fine for corners with relatively straight entries, but for more curved approaches or very long corners I struggle to pick a braking line. Too wide and I have to come off the brakes early to turn in. Too narrow and I compromise my apex speed. Hence the original question. Perhaps I'll have to choose one or two specific corners where I have most problems and just practice it there
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Old 14 Mar 2006, 18:12 (Ref:1548208)   #15
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Warning, what follows is a rant and does not necessarily represent the opinions of Ten-Tenths.
(To be honest, it probably doesn't even represent the opinions of the poster when they aren't ranting.)

A plea to all posters on this thread. DO NOT give any more advice to dtype38 that may help him go faster round the bendy bits. He is far too quick as it is and together with even more upgrades to his car I will never be able to get anywhere near him on the track, at least not until they allow hot hatches in classic Jaguar racing.

We now return you to our normal ramblings.

Thank you
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Old 14 Mar 2006, 23:05 (Ref:1549015)   #16
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Oi - watch it..... or you might just find yourself on the wrong end of a
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