Pathetic Revisions To Brands

[Paddockman]

http://jeremyroberts.fotopic.net/c1440664.html

Take a look at the above link

Totally ruined one of the last old fashioned close to the action spots on the Indy Circuit. (Clark Curve)

But hey good news for everyone is that there will be room for another snatch vehicle to obscure spectators vision and anyone who has total brake failure here will have 20 yds of gravel to skate over, one word PATHETIC!!

I take it from these shots that the debris fence will be extended as well?

At the end of the day who is Top Line Motorsport for? Drivers, Marshalls or the PAYING PUBLIC!! Give it ten more years and believe me people will stay away and watch on TV due to these over the top safety revisions. That day will be the final nail in the coffin for the sport I have followed since childhood.

Nobody will listen it will all be argued away by excuses of safety, expense for "Club Racers" Foreign Series demands and keeping to the "Raceday Timetables.

Hate to think how some of the Amatuer Photographers will feel about this as this was one of their favourite spots!!

Is anywhere on any British Circuit safe, the answer is no!!!

Would it be too much too ask to consider us poor humble spectators!!

Again one word Pathetic short sightedness!

[Lightning Bug]

Originally Posted by Paddockman

But hey good news for everyone is that there will be room for another snatch vehicle to obscure spectators vision

And you can bet that it'll take at least 5 laps under the safety car for the snatch vehicle to recover even the most minor incident. As usual.

[Hubble]

I think you are being more than a little unfair in your criticism here.......

Club motorsport, as good as it is, doesn't pay the bills in quite the same way that national and international events do.

Remember that a lot of the work carried out at Brands over the last few years has been to improve facilities etc at the behest of the major series now visiting the venue - A1GP, DTM, WTCC, BSB, WSBK etc - and looking at some of the images linked to, to protect the marshalls and other trackside workers in the event of accidents.

At the moment there is no additional debris fencing up at the point where the old fencing ended, but the bank has been pushed back some way. If it stays like this, the amateur photographers will still be able to shoot over the low fence, so no change there, they'll just be a bit further back now. And most of the paying public I've seen at Clark Curve over recent years have preferred to view from the top of the bank anyway, so they'll be no further from the circuit than before

So why not stop looking at just the negative aspects, and appreciate the efforts that are being made to make the circuit safer for competitors, marshalls and spectators alike

[Paddockman]

Originally Posted by Hubble

I think you are being more than a little unfair in your criticism here.......

Club motorsport, as good as it is, doesn't pay the bills in quite the same way that national and international events do.

Remember that a lot of the work carried out at Brands over the last few years has been to improve facilities etc at the behest of the major series now visiting the venue - A1GP, DTM, WTCC, BSB, WSBK etc - and looking at some of the images linked to, to protect the marshalls and other trackside workers in the event of accidents.

At the moment there is no additional debris fencing up at the point where the old fencing ended, but the bank has been pushed back some way. If it stays like this, the amateur photographers will still be able to shoot over the low fence, so no change there, they'll just be a bit further back now. And most of the paying public I've seen at Clark Curve over recent years have preferred to view from the top of the bank anyway, so they'll be no further from the circuit than before

So why not stop looking at just the negative aspects, and appreciate the efforts that are being made to make the circuit safer for competitors, marshalls and spectators alike

Don't think we will agree on this.

My whole point is you have to draw a line somewhere because once circuits go to far that is it!

Circuits should not be changed to suit the cars/bikes it should be the other way round

Eventually people will be so far from the track that it will be more exillarating putting your chair up by the side of the M1.

Motorsport for the specatator always used to be IMO about 2 main things

1. Good Racing

2. (If the racing was poor) you still had the spectator areas where you could actually apreciate the skill of the driver and feel close to the action. These places have all but gone and call me negative but I am trying to save some of our Motorsport Heritage before it is all ripped away for the sake of Safety and the demands of Foreign Race Series.

DTM! yeah love the cars and the racing BUT WHY should they be allowed to dictate the landscape of our Circuits!


Yeah different views but give it as I have said 10 years and compare spectator numbers with 20 years previous.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by Paddockman

Yeah different views but give it as I have said 10 years and compare spectator numbers with 20 years previous.

....and then compare the numbers of dead and seriously injured and perhaps you'll see it was worth it

We're not going to agree on this, but I do think you could recognise that circuit and facility upgrades are a necessary part of motor racing, and any circuit which fails to keep up (Silverstone take note) will wither and die. At least you can see the money being poured in by MSV to make their circuits better for all. Mallory and Anglesey have also spent money upgrading recently, and I'm sure that it will be worth it in the long run.

The more high profile series we can attract to UK circuits the better - our talented young drivers will find it easier to gain sponsorship if the events they partake at draw decent crowds. The likes of DTM, A1GP, WTCC bring crowds, and if they have specific safety or procedural requirements (snatch vehicles etc) then so be it. Obviously there is sufficient benefit to it or MSV wouldn't be spending money on it.

Surely the addition of extra snatch vehicles will help the racing? Accidents will be cleared quicker, hopefully reducing the need for red flags or prolonged safety car periods. What would you rather watch - a JCB pulling out a couple of cars quickly, or 5 laps of non-racing under the safety car?

I know what I pay my money for.....

[Piglet]

It's very straightforward isn't it? No DTM/A1 GP, WTCC, WSB, BSB etc and there will be no UK circuits.

Club racing doesn't pay the bills....JP runs a pretty tight ship and I think there is close to zero chance of money being spent unnecessarily.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Lightning Bug

And you can bet that it'll take at least 5 laps under the safety car for the snatch vehicle to recover even the most minor incident. As usual.

Yeah right "as usual", every time right?

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Paddockman

http://jeremyroberts.fotopic.net/c1440664.html
At the end of the day who is Top Line Motorsport for? Drivers, Marshalls or the PAYING PUBLIC!!

Top line?

Answer
Manufacturers & TV
bottom line

[andy97]

Well I'm a club racer and a spectator and safety improvements that give me the chance not to right myself and my car off are all to the good IMHO. It may even improve the racing (and therefore spectator value) as drivers are less concerned of the consequences of getting it wrong.

[Locost47]

I agree. I'm a club racer too, and i've been nerfed off the track there at nearly 100mph. The original poster might not appreciate the reduction in his viewing pleasure, but i for one am grateful that i won't have to experience another 'life flashing before your eyes' moment while hurtling towards that barrier at high speed. Before saying that MSV is being shortsighted, perhaps you should use your own vision to see things from the other side of the Armco.

[John Turner]

It makes sense to improve the run off area for competitors at Clark curve, and as Hubble says most spectators stand at the top of the bank there. But the reason they stand there is partly because the fence is exceptionally high, not low (where is it low, at that location?). So it is not the distance from the track that is annoying; it is the height of the fencing. That's what I find so frustrating at this, (and other points too) of the circuit. It's so high that it even impedes a clear view of the track looking left down the Brabham straight.

[SimonY]

Originally Posted by Locost47

I agree. I'm a club racer too, and i've been nerfed off the track there at nearly 100mph. The original poster might not appreciate the reduction in his viewing pleasure, but i for one am grateful that i won't have to experience another 'life flashing before your eyes' moment while hurtling towards that barrier at high speed. Before saying that MSV is being shortsighted, perhaps you should use your own vision to see things from the other side of the Armco.

I am a club racer but I disagree with this. For me safety revisions (not necessarily this one) really detract from the thrill of racing, which obviously is the whole reason I do it. I much prefer circuits like Castle Combe where there is little margin for error, rather than Silverstone where you can go off at most places on the circuit and be saved by a huge expanse of tarmac or gravel. For me Avon Rise/Quarry = exciting, Copse = boring. Also I find that the safer the circuit is, the more risks the competitors will take, so both car to car contact and offs (usually ending stuck in a gravel trap) increase.

Edited to add: and yes I have had my fair share of fast offs, in fact I was to be found deep in the barrier at Coram only the other week....

[SimonY]

Before anyone thinks I have a death wish I thought I'd add that I do realise that there has to be a balance with the safety improvements - I don't for example think we should go back to tree lined circuits with no barriers to spectators. Also I realise that Brands improvements are probably to do with FIA regs for international meetings which they are obliged to comply with, and which they have little influence over.

[Locost47]

No i know what you mean, and i agree, to a fair extent. I find the Hall Bends at Cadwell less intimidating now there's a large run-off zone there and Copse at Silverstone doesn't require that deep intake of breath anymore.

I wouldn't expect everyone else to think the same way, but for me a larger gravel trap leading up to a barrier is still reasonably intimidating since ending up in it would mean end of race and end of fun. The critical thing (again, just speaking for me) is that i can clean out the gravel, stick my car on the trailer and drive home (albeit in a foul mood!) then come back to race another day without investing a huge amount more time, effort & money than i already have.

I agree that the penalty-free tarmac run-off areas the F1 guys specify nowadays take away a lot of the thrill as well as the challenge, but situations like this one at Brands are designed mainly for the total head-on moments, where there's been a collision or car failure or whatever, rather than just 'normal' driver errors like slipping a bit wide or outbraking yourself. In those failure/accident cases a trip to casualty or chucking your car in the skip is a harsh price to pay for something that may be out of your control.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by John Turner

(where is it low, at that location)

At the point the GP circuit rejoins the Indy, there is a low fence all the way back to the Yokohama bridge. I used to regularly shoot over this, so if that remains, there should be no change for the amateur photographers out there

[tristancliffe]

If the cars should be adapted to suit the circuits, how will club racers, with cars ranging from classic Minis to ex-F3000 or ex-F2cars cope? They can't modify the cars to suit the tracks, so surely it would be quite nice if the tracks were a little bit more forgiving without reducing the quality for the spectators or the drivers?

It seems to me that a little more room for a mistake is a good thing, whilst photography and spectating seem unaffected, and the challenge of the corner remains intact (it's not that forgiving).

[Paddockman]

Originally Posted by Hubble

At the point the GP circuit rejoins the Indy, there is a low fence all the way back to the Yokohama bridge. I used to regularly shoot over this, so if that remains, there should be no change for the amateur photographers out there

Think you will find if you look at the pics closely that the low fence has gone and I will put money on there being a substancially higher debris fence going in, ref Druids Last Overhaul.

[Paddockman]

Originally Posted by SimonY

I do realise that there has to be a balance with the safety improvements.

Exactly "Balance" being the key word.

Correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure somone will) but it looks like there will be another "Snatch Vehicle" point halfway round Clark.

If that is the case why????

What's wrong with simply parking the vehicle on the GP track along with the rescue vehicle which leads directly to this spot in mere seconds.

So why block another area from spectators view and just as it was nice to be able to see cars struggling to get the power down over the crest at the exit.

Personally I don't think there is any balance and that considerations for spectators just are not thought off only in regard to Hot Dogs and Working Toilets.

Consider the famous Champ Car Bore that was over. What have we to thank them for? 2 Seperate fences on the entry to Paddock surely now the main fence is well up to the job the origional low fence could be removed quite safely, but no, years down the line it's still there, how is this taking spectator viewing seriously.

Oh and I hope this year that perhaps the DTM sponsorship Banners could not be plastered all over the fence at the top of Paddock re: the last 2 years surely someone at MSV must make a stand.

I for one just do not want Brands to become Silverstone and every year a little of it's old magic and challenge is further diluted and viewing is restricted.

Is it really too much to ask, with all the modern day safety improvements I think spectator viewing should be given thought at the same time.

[westfieldbend]

just came back from the club bike meeting, the fence is as high as the new one at druids, so no more phootos from there... padock bend inside barriers back too...

Why not just ban spectators from motorsport!!

[fieldodreams79]

i'm all for being close to the action, but sometimes you have to do what you need to do in order to progress with safety issues associated with the sport.

i had the pleasure to spend a 1/2 day at Brands on my short visit to Southern England; left Gatwick airport to head straight for the track. saw some historics races and what a lovely place to race and to watch racing. the fact that you can see half the track from the front stretch stands is VERY appealling.

my home track, Road ATL, is similar in it is a natural terrain course with some serious dips and some awesome vantage points, close to the track and high up with great veiws.

so to the OP, i understand the strong feelings of having things changed, that "hamper the spectator experience", but we need to realize the importance of updating older tracks to keep up with the cars as they increase their speeds.

[Al Weyman]

Bring on the safety areas I say the more the better.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by westfieldbend

the fence is as high as the new one at druids, so no more phootos from there...

Does it extend all the way back to the bridge?

[Bodysnatcher]

Could you at least acknowledge where took the link from and that the point of the original photo gallery was to show the changes to the marshals's posts?

There has been a trend over the years increase the height of fencing in the areas where we congregate, and at some higher risk posts this is not a bad thing.

I am sorry if this makes things a lesser spectacle for spectators, but public liability dictates that if an accident could be forseen and action not taken to minimise the risk then legally a circuit operator could be liable for large financial penalties as well as criminal proceedings.

As yet we don't have enough evidence that the higher fences encroach on areas previously enjoyed by spectators (although I believe they will), any photos that JeremyRoberts and I assembled were focussed on marshals posts, and some of the higher fencing could have been there to protect the workforce whilst the track remained in operation.


BTW, most marshals dislike seeing larger gravel traps and snatch laybys, but at least as far as Brands goes I believe the changes have been mandated by a certain international race series that prefers to use the Indy circuit. I guess we all have to adapt to ever changing circumstances.

[jonbryant]

Originally Posted by westfieldbend

just came back from the club bike meeting, the fence is as high as the new one at druids, so no more phootos from there... padock bend inside barriers back too...

Why not just ban spectators from motorsport!!

I was signed on yesterday so had a walk round there to see what was happening. The high catch fencing currently finishes where the old one used to (approx). I know a bit about this type of fencing and there doesn't appear to be any provision to continue the big fence. There's no concrete pad foundations in place and no facility to continue the fencing ff the last straining post.



Being signed on or marshalling there is now like being in the trenches though.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Paddockman

Correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure somone will) but it looks like there will be another "Snatch Vehicle" point halfway round Clark.

Yep

Originally Posted by Paddockman

What's wrong with simply parking the vehicle on the GP track along with the rescue vehicle which leads directly to this spot in mere seconds.

Because racers on the GP circuit would have to swerve round the recovery units parked under the bridge