New Recovery style

**Asp** · 9 Dec 2005, 19:19 (Ref:1480725)

This has already been posted in the marshal's forum, but is interesting enough to warrant a thread here too.
We're going to be seeing something slightly different at Dubai:
http://www.a1gp.com/news/index.php?f...d=1&newsid=133

I personally can see it going horribly wrong, but it's innovative and will get people talking!

SALEEN S7R · 9 Dec 2005, 19:31 (Ref:1480732)

Personally I dont see why it cant work, sure it wont take over from the conventional methods completly but it could well work in conjunction with the existing format IMO and could set a precedent for other series. Good on A1 for being so innovative.

The STIG · 9 Dec 2005, 20:14 (Ref:1480763)

Well, if that thing ever comes anywhere near me, I'm off.
I can't see how it can be done practically or safely.

**ScotsBrutesFan** · 9 Dec 2005, 20:42 (Ref:1480785)

Some of this has been covered in the Marshalls thread.

Anyone who has been anywhere near a helicopter in the hover, even a "small" one will know how strong a downdraft can be, I certainly wouldn't want to be driving a light weight car under a small/medium chopper less than 50 meters over head.

Who will be doing the slinging, as this is a very specialised skill?

An A1GP car is naturally unbalanced with the weight obviously to the rear, as such it will "fly" nose high, resulting in major drag with the result in it swinging possibly erratically in the effects of the downwash.

There is also a question of where will they put the cars down? A flatbed can return a car back a teams garage, It's unlikely a helicopter will be allowed to hover directly over the pitlane for safety reasons so will the cars be placed in a safe place to be returned back to the teams on a flatbed? Tends to defeat the purpose doesn't it!

maltafan · 9 Dec 2005, 22:42 (Ref:1480875)

..... and if they were in Bahrain, all the sand from desert would end on track!

Eddy V · 10 Dec 2005, 07:59 (Ref:1481040)

I'd love to see this hooking up at Brands, exit of Druids. Or on the start-finish straight. Or any place really near trees and buildings.
What is next? A course marshal "abseiling" to the car?

SALEEN S7R · 10 Dec 2005, 08:01 (Ref:1481044)

So what you are all saying is that the idea is a joke, dangerous, and the A1 GP organisers and helicoptor piolts dont know what they are doing really and that the idea will be a disaster? We will see, personally I dont see A1 GP going ahead with this idea if it is really dangerous.

**Asp** · 10 Dec 2005, 09:33 (Ref:1481074)

I'm sure they know what they're doing, and I'd really like to see it in action. But, it is more dangerous than using a flat bed, and there's more things that can go wrong (and if they do, the consequences would be worse). That's indusputable.
I'm assuming A1GP have done their homework, and that there will be hardly any effect of downdraft on the track due to the distance/type of helicopter etc. There will have to be some, but let's assume until we see it at the weekend that it won't cause any problems.
What I'm really concerned is who's going to hook the cars up. It can't be a "normal" marshal, ie. the first there - it's a more difficult process than hooking up for a lift onto a flatbed and especially more important to do it right. How many people who are trained to do it then will be at the circuit? How long will it take one of them to get to the car - will the issue of getting everyone to the incident actually take longer than getting a flatbed out, which is one reason for this introduction? What if there's very few and they actually have to out in a car to the incident - that will require the SC and trump another aspect of the introduction?

There's a lot of unanswered questions, perhaps we'll see them solved over the weekend. Yes, it's very innovative. But one thing's for sure - there is an issue of publicity behind this as well. Not that it's a bad thing in any way, but I'm sure they were thinking of other advantages when thinking up the idea.

SALEEN S7R · 10 Dec 2005, 09:43 (Ref:1481079)

I would assume that they would get to the location much faster than the flat bed trucks would, assuming the helicoptor is airborn througout the races which im assuming it will be. As for who will be qualifed to hook the cars up Im sure that all the "normal" marshalls will be given extensive training before anything goes ahead. Yes there are a few unanswered questions, at least to the general public, but im pretty sure this idea is a good one. I too dont expect the helicoptors to be flying away with the driver still inside the car, I would imagine that the helicoptor will only fly without the driver inside the car for obvious reasons. One thing is for sure it will be interesting to see how this weekend goes, especially if the helicoptor is deployed.

The STIG · 10 Dec 2005, 12:08 (Ref:1481123)

Thats a lot of people to train up round by round. it would be easier to have one or two trained riggers in a fast intervention vehicle (i.e. a fire car or something similar) who would be able to get to the scene, rig the load to the helicopter in a safe manner.

Then we have the fact that with only one helicopter it could take longer to clear incidents involving more than one car.

basically to make this work, you'd need to deploy saftey car, and if you're going to do that, you may as well dispatch a truck. besides that, what's wrong with giving JCB a call and getting some of their rough terrain forklifts to do the job?

Mr Jinxx · 10 Dec 2005, 23:55 (Ref:1481429)

You guys have clearly never heard of the new A1GP Anti-Grav Helicopter Recovery system. What's downdraft? Oh yes, and the two-point harness

spindoctorette · 11 Dec 2005, 09:40 (Ref:1481531)

Has just been used for the first time for the Brazilian car - looks spectacular!!

Kicking-back · 11 Dec 2005, 09:42 (Ref:1481533)

Yes, very efficient

SALEEN S7R · 11 Dec 2005, 10:52 (Ref:1481570)

Indeed I was very impressed, watching here on TV there looked to be no danger and no dust being blown onto the track, a good efficent job. IMO. The only thing that anyone can say that could be potentially dangerous I think is flying the car over the top of the race track, but even this is isnt that dangerous IMO, no worse than some of the cranes we see at Monaco with the F1 hoisting cars up above the F1/GP2 cars that are racing underneath.

brands · 11 Dec 2005, 13:13 (Ref:1481652)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindoctorette

Has just been used for the first time for the Brazilian car - looks spectacular!!

agreed.....but why even move that car, it was so far off of the track ?

The STIG · 11 Dec 2005, 13:20 (Ref:1481654)

Any photos anywhere?

strider · 11 Dec 2005, 16:37 (Ref:1481705)

Quote:

Originally Posted by brands

agreed.....but why even move that car, it was so far off of the track ?

We didn't see it happen, but I wonder if they took it back to the pits, or at least the paddock?

I was very sceptical about this whole idea, but am converted now I've seen it in action. I bet the insurance costs a bit, though.

ascarmarshal · 11 Dec 2005, 16:43 (Ref:1481708)

I can't see the CAA allowing it to happen in the UK

**ScotsBrutesFan** · 11 Dec 2005, 22:13 (Ref:1481881)

I have to admit, the heli-lift did appear to cause a minium of disruption, and my own comments about downwash proved not to be the case.

*******

Helicopters do regularly fly at low level over Motorsports events usually for TV proposes, so the CAA wouldn't have a propblem with that.

To my Limited knowledge, in the UK, only the military regularly use helicopters with a centre hard point for lifting underslung loads.
For it to happen in the UK such civilian skills would need to be imported at great expense as the Sheik did in this case from Switzerland, or British Civilian pilots would need to undergo expensive training?

Who in the UK would pick up the bill?

**Asp** · 11 Dec 2005, 22:29 (Ref:1481901)

I think it couldn't happen in the UK - not for A1GP at any rate. It worked at Dubai because it's in the middle of the desert. Trying to do a helilift amongst the trees at Druids couldn't work, and I'm sure no-one would even think about trying it!

And I think A1GP would be the other series that could try it - smaller series couldn't afford it, and the Grand Prix is busy enough with helicopter landings that there's not enough air space! Not that Bernie would think of considering such a thing anyway...

I'm fairly sure that there's space for the old flatbed yet.

Nicholosophy · 12 Dec 2005, 12:22 (Ref:1482237)

A1 GP seems to be about looking at new ideas as well as having exciting racing. At least new things are being tried...

NotLordPercy · 13 Dec 2005, 15:05 (Ref:1483170)

It gives a whole new meaning to call for a ' full lift'! Malaysia spun & stalled at my corner & the helicopter was called for . Worked well , once his ground crew arrived to tie the car on correctly. It was moved to the infield & collected by the usual breakdown .
One problem was the proximity of the very high TV camera at the straight on position. But it worked & there was no need for a safety car!

The STIG · 13 Dec 2005, 15:09 (Ref:1483176)

still needs a ground crew though - how did they get there?

NotLordPercy · 13 Dec 2005, 15:36 (Ref:1483196)

I believe there were 2 'ground crew' infield with 'monkey bikes'or similar. There was around half of the track where such snatches were deemed safe.

**Stephen Green** · 13 Dec 2005, 16:04 (Ref:1483215)

It is also worth pointing out that this was an experiment by the helicopter people who came to Dubai and asked to be allowed to show what they could do.

You are right to say it would be very difficult to see it happening in the UK for all sorts of reasons, but it could prove very effective in desert rallies for example.

The length of the cable meant there was virtually no movement of sand, in fact the arrival of the medivac helicpopter caused far more disturbance, blowing sand everywhere. I say 10 out of 10 to the guys for coming up with a viable alternative and I wouldn't mind betting you will see them again in the future.

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