The best and worst Holden/Ford tourers ever built, and not just in the last ten years

[Mattracer]

What are the best and worst models Holden and Ford have produced for the Australian Touring Car Championship (and the V8 Supercar Championship?)

Best Holden models- A9X, '02 VX
Worst- 1988-89 VL Gp A (VY?? )

Best Ford models- GTHO Phase 3, RS 500, BA
Worst- AU

Your thoughts?

[rocket]

could probably through the EF falcon in on the good side & add the mustang johnson ran in the gpA era in the bad side

[Sol]

Holden - Best A9X, worst VN Group A

Ford - Best GHTO Phase 3, worst XD

[Mattracer]

XD? The worst? They had some success with that model and took the ATCC/Bathurst double in '81. Actually, DJR had the only XD doing anything consistently but it did score wins and a Championship.

[xrystl]

1968 - 69 XT Falcon GT , I don't remember it winning a race anywhere . A sweet road car , just not a racer . I think the HQ 350 Monaro was in the same boat , a few were built to race in the current series of the day but they just weren't in the same league as the earlier models .

[The Hrt Kid]

ya cant exactly be judging the vy and ba yet, there only half a season old.

[GTRMagic]

This is a difficult one because the rules changed so the base vehicle became less important in the Supercar world...

Best Holden models- A9/X, VB, VK, VS, VT, VX
Worst- '85 non-Brock VK,

Best Ford models- RS500 Sierra, EB, BA
Worst- Mustang, pre-RS500 Sierras, AU

[Amaroo Park]

Can't gree with VL either Brock or Walkinshaw version. You have to remeber that the Commodores had a weight penalty and while they had good horsepower they had nothing like the Sierras or Datsun GTR's

[RaceTime]

But let's face it - the Walkinshaw Commodore looked like - well, how can you describe it? Sorta like a cross between a Batmobile and a McDonalds food tray..

[Amaroo Park]

Originally posted by RaceTime
But let's face it - the Walkinshaw Commodore looked like - well, how can you describe it? Sorta like a cross between a Batmobile and a McDonalds food tray..

Whats that got to do with the way it performed

[GTRMagic]

It took a long time for the race teams to work out the effects of the aero package on that car. I guess thats a function of how pretty it was/wasnt.

The VL was reliable in Brock spec (winner of R1 of the WTCC, 4th at Spa, Bathurst winner 1987), but the Walkinshaw one also won Bathurst in 1990, but didnt do too much else.

[RaceTime]

The question was 'What are the best and worst models' - I didn't see this as being solely related to performance.

[GTRMagic]

In terms of sales performance, the VL TWR thing didnt sell well at all.... enough to get thru homologataion and thats only if they left the bottom lip of the front spoiler in the boot....

[Gaz170]

Originally posted by Sol
Holden - Best A9X, worst VN Group A

Ford - Best GHTO Phase 3, worst XD

Are you sure you don't mean the XE? It took Ford drivers a long time to get on top of the new rear suspension on it.
Dick's 1982 car was certainly a dog in the handling department.

[Gaz170]

2 more for the worst lists.

Ford - The original Sierra XR4T (non-cosworth)

Holden - SLR5000

[Amaroo Park]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
In terms of sales performance, the VL TWR thing didnt sell well at all.... enough to get thru homologataion and thats only if they left the bottom lip of the front spoiler in the boot....

Don't where you get that. The VL Walkinshaw sold 750 units admitedly over a period of time. but they only need 500 for Homligation. Where as the VN they battled to sell 300 and in the end CAMS gave Holden dispensatoin to stop there and run it.

[racer69]

Worst Holden would be in my view the VN Group A from 1991-92, years late in getting onto the track, and just not competitive....what about the short-lived SLR-5000, or the S4.

Worst Ford would be the XE Falcon, or the 85-86 Sierra (maybe even the 1987-spec Cosworth, prior to the evolution model that year)

[Mattracer]

Notice how in these Group C eras, one model of car eg. the XD/XE was considered a bad car, yet one team and pretty much one team only had the car winning and consistently scoring enough that it could take the ATCC. Similar situation to now- only SBR have the BA working really consistently at the front of the field week in, week out.

The more things change, the more they stay the same?

[racer69]

The thing to remember though, referring to the XE, was that Johnson won the 1984 title on consistency and the fact that he was the only of the main title contenders to run every race. Brock missed two rounds for his Le Mans attack, Moffat missed the rest of the season after his Surfers accident, Grice didn't have the budget to do every round, Fury and Nissan skipped Surfers, and Bob Morris only did the Oran Park round which he won. Peter McLoed and Jim Richards did every round, but didn't really have the overall pace.

[Mattracer]

Well yes, but the XD in the hands of Johnson conclusively did a job on the whole field, including the might of Brock/HDT, despite the scuttlebut at the time over the XD's alledgedly superior cylinder heads that Brock wanted ala a Blueprint performance review.

[racer69]

I agree that the XD did seem a good car. The only other person to have a proper go like Johnson with the XD was Bob Morris, and he was very competitive with it as well, so it was fundamentaly a good car.

Steve Masterton on occasion was able to get a good performance out of an XE, but that more often came during qualifying rather than a race (unless it was an AMSCAR race at Amaroo). They were always trying new cooling and aerodynamic devices of thier XE as well, which usually got banned as soon as they introduced them

[Mattracer]

I remember some interesting BBS wheels that DJR and subsequently the JPS BMWs used to flow more air to the front brakes for better cooling. IIRC, I didn't see these on other cars apart from the DJR and JPS cars. For a while Johnson ran these on the rear as well, but mostly on the front and on the XE especially. Masterton, there was an article in AMC magazine a few issues back revealing its existence though modified somewhat into a sports sedan?? and its restoration for a reappearance in the historic Group C class. That will be great to see.

[racer69]

I hope it comes off. There weren't many XE Group C Falcon's built. Dick Johnson will be highly unlikely to race his one, and the whereabouts of the Alan Jones XE (as far as i know) unaccounted for, this may be the only hope for the XE.

[GTRMagic]

I do remember a year at Sandown where DJR came in for a pitstop and had troubles fitting the big new rear wheels under the guards Those were the days of the infamous "Chinese Fire Drill" pitstops for DJR, when everything that could go wrong did go wrong...

In regards to the VL TWR sales question, I dotn think there is any doubt that they built the 750 (indeed fansite www.walkinshaw.net records one build numbers as being #748) but these cars were acknowledged as difficult to sell in their original form. The same website suggests that there were some road versions sold without the bodykit to get rid of them

[William Dale Jr]

Regarding the Alan Jones XE, let me see if I have this straight:

1982 - Built for Alan Jones, driven to victory by Bob Morris in Oran Park enduro, pranged at Forrest Elbow in final practice for the 1000 by John Fitzpatrick. Rebuilt and sold to Andrew Harris.

1983 - Driven by Harris in assorted races. Bought by Ross Palmer to replace the car Dick Johnson remodelled in Hardie's Heroes.

IIRC, the car ended up sitting in the Bathurst museum for a while (still wearing the Bathurst 83 paintscheme). Was it owned by Alf Grant at some stage?