ACO Regulations for 2007

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Did Keen race for Taurus Motorsports before , in their B2K-10 ?

Sorry , wrong thread !!!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

It is called freedom of choice; if a driver wants one and does not get it, go somewhere else; if the driver does care if it is there or not, his choice.

Forcing something on professionals, because you think they are little children, which need to be led by the hand and protected, is asinine.
It seems odd to have so little faith in race teams that they would kill their drivers.

Hmm, you muist use air conditioning at the proper setting or die; I never thought reality was so narrow.
Bob

Sportscar racing also has many pay drivers who may not be as fit as full time proffessional.

If pro drivers suffer from heat exhaustion, as they undoubtedly do, what about non pros.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by canam

Bob, are you going to cover the additional insurance premiums or litigation costs arising out of spectator injury--particularly in the US where rampant lawyerism is an integral part of life (sadly).

The question "why did not the circuit owner, team owner, sanctioning body or driver take action that would have reduced the chances of this accident happening as it is a fact that blah blah blah."

When it is acknowledged that having air con can improve concentration and reduce the chances of exhaustion, any insurer or court of law would require that best practice be followed. It has got very little to do with the driver being comfortable (although in my book that it a real benefit) and more to do with keeping the insurance companies happy.

If may be your right to not have to have air-con, just underwrite the bill and, as I presume you won't, air-con is required.

You are going on assumptions and presumptions not based on history but panic, and fear.
Courts have so far viewed cases with the fact that racing is dangerous and viewing racing is dangerous, otherwise it would have been shut down a long time ago.
This is paranoia at its worst, based not on history but unsupported fear.

IF you are correct, then auto racing will stop, as it will then be judged that unless you can give a one hundred percent certainty that no one, will ever get hurt, much less killed or crippled, the risk is too great and the task should cease.

It may reach the point you fear, because of people who operate under the umbrella of fear, and if that is true, then go balls-out until the lights are turned off.

As bad as US courts are, it seems concerning auto racing, some courts in Europe are even bigger joke.
Bob

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Sportscar racing also has many pay drivers who may not be as fit as full time proffessional.

If pro drivers suffer from heat exhaustion, as they undoubtedly do, what about non pros.

These said same type of drivers drove the 24 hours of Daytona when there was no chicane and a faster infield plus the old extremely challenging Sebring.
I do not remeber body bags being lined up after the races.
Bob

[TWK]

Originally Posted by JAG

Sportscar racing also has many pay drivers who may not be as fit as full time proffessional.

If pro drivers suffer from heat exhaustion, as they undoubtedly do, what about non pros.

On that sentiment, I'll have to disagree. If they're not fit or even not "as fit," they need to find something else to do with their time (and money).

As a very famous race car driver (who also has been able to afford to race independently of a wage for doing so), once told me in regard to a similar thought (performance, interests, of "gentleman" drivers), "That (a 2400 pound, 800 HP car) isn't a set of golf clubs. If he approaches it like that he belongs on a golf course, not a race track. There are others out there (on that track), you know."

Actually, quite coincidentally, Murphy's got something to say on that very subject today. See rules number 1. and number 5. at...

http://murphythebear.com/blog/

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

You are going on assumptions and presumptions not based on history but panic, and fear.
Courts have so far viewed cases with the fact that racing is dangerous and viewing racing is dangerous, otherwise it would have been shut down a long time ago.
This is paranoia at its worst, based not on history but unsupported fear.

IF you are correct, then auto racing will stop, as it will then be judged that unless you can give a one hundred percent certainty that no one, will ever get hurt, much less killed or crippled, the risk is too great and the task should cease.

It may reach the point you fear, because of people who operate under the umbrella of fear, and if that is true, then go balls-out until the lights are turned off.

As bad as US courts are, it seems concerning auto racing, some courts in Europe are even bigger joke.
Bob

Then I suppose there was no reason for higher stronger catch fences or tethers for suspension and wheel components on CART and IRL cars after incidents which saw parts in the stands with the fans at Michigan in 98(CART) and Lowes in 99(IRL) resulting in deaths of fans?
Or restricteor plates and roof flaps in NASCAR after several accidents where cars became airborne (at Daytona and Talladega)and an 87 crash by Bobby Allison which tore down the fence on the front straight. All put in place by demands from thier insurance carriers as to lesson litigation.



No stupid law suits like people suing tabacco co's because they could not read nor comprehend the Surgeon Generals warning on the packs,or suing McDonalds for spilling hot coffee on themself. No the real world would not be like that!!!

L.P.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Then I suppose there was no reason for higher stronger catch fences or tethers for suspension and wheel components on CART and IRL cars after incidents which saw parts in the stands with the fans at Michigan in 98(CART) and Lowes in 99(IRL) resulting in deaths of fans?
Or restricteor plates and roof flaps in NASCAR after several accidents where cars became airborne (at Daytona and Talladega)and an 87 crash by Bobby Allison which tore down the fence on the front straight. All put in place by demands from thier insurance carriers as to lesson litigation.



No stupid law suits like people suing tabacco co's because they could not read nor comprehend the Surgeon Generals warning on the packs,or suing McDonalds for spilling hot coffee on themself. No the real world would not be like that!!!

L.P.

You named accidents, you missed the boat race a few years ago where a boat charged out of the water and into a crowd, but now give the court cases that shut down the motorsport events this happened at.

If the dooms day scenario were true, these cases would have caused the end of motorsports; they did not.

To compare accidents which were the result of how physics act on a moving object, with a supposition that suddenly drivers getting hot, will cause them to happen whole sale, unless fascist style rules are suddnely employed and enforced, in a draconian manner, does not cut the mustard.

If motorsports are in such a mental state that the worse case scenario has even a slight chance of becoming anything but rare, then it IS TIME to pull the plug.
Bob

[canam]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

You named accidents, you missed the boat race a few years ago where a boat charged out of the water and into a crowd, but now give the court cases that shut down the motorsport events this happened at.

If the dooms day scenario were true, these cases would have caused the end of motorsports; they did not.

To compare accidents which were the result of how physics act on a moving object, with a supposition that suddenly drivers getting hot, will cause them to happen whole sale, unless fascist style rules are suddnely employed and enforced, in a draconian manner, does not cut the mustard.

If motorsports are in such a mental state that the worse case scenario has even a slight chance of becoming anything but rare, then it IS TIME to pull the plug.
Bob

Am I missing something here but the point is not the what happens when all the litigation finishes. Races are still happening because circuits/promoters/sanctioning bodies and teams are always attempting to adopt best practise (when faced with safety issues) and that is how they can get insurance coverage at a level that is not crippling in the first place.

Without insurance, there would be no race...unless Grand Theft Auto is to your liking (I am pretty sure you don't need insurance in that type of 'racing').

Any circuit owner//promoter/sanctioning body and race team will have to sign the necessary indemnities and have to satisfy the insurer that best practise is being applied (at each level). In the current environment, it is hard to argue that racing when the cockpit heat is hovering between 35-50 degrees C is truly safe as many biometric studies will show substantive declines in human abilities at progressively higher ambient temperatures. Given these facts, it is even harder to argue against the fitting of aircon when the product readily exists or having a rule that limits cockpit temperatures.

To make an argument based upon the notion that mechancial components can fail particularly when the entry ticket warns that Motor Sports Is Dangerous continues to miss the pint about best practise--hence the Hybrid and the new LMP1 regulations. After having several cars go airborne (a feature resulting from their own inherent designs) do you not think that the insurers to the circuits would have wanted to see some remedial action---and they got it.

Again, if you want to re-insure all the circuits (and related parties) with you own collateral then you are very welcome to step up to the plate.

[HORNDAWG]

You named accidents, you missed the boat race a few years ago where a boat charged out of the water and into a crowd,

No I showed causal relationships!

but now give the court cases that shut down the motorsport events this happened at.

I do not know of any nor was that ever implied!

If the dooms day scenario were true, these cases would have caused the end of motorsports; they did not.

What doomsday scenario? We were discussing the cost of implementing, or not, safety devices/rules! And I would assume it cost somebody a lot of money for those fatalities but they do not want us to know how much!

To compare accidents which were the result of how physics act on a moving object, with a supposition that suddenly drivers getting hot, will cause them to happen whole sale,

If an accident no matter what the cause could have been prevented and was not, then there is liability. Nobody stated we would see accidents en masse!

unless fascist style rules are suddnely employed and enforced, in a draconian manner, does not cut the mustard

.
Since when is any business run as a democracy? Are these people not professionals? These rules are not a suprise as they were announced at least a year ago.

If motorsports are in such a mental state that the worse case scenario has even a slight chance of becoming anything but rare, then it IS TIME to pull the plug.
Bob

Huh, mental state?? The making and implementation of safty rules/devices is what keeps these occurrences rare! As to pulling the plug. The ugly truth of greed and corruption are upon you BE WARY!!!

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

I am not sure how races are run in Europe and the rest of the world, in the US all spectator tickets have disclaimers on and at the enterence to the veneuw there is another disclaimer.

All contestants and support personal that enter a circuit sign at least TWO weivers and disclaimer statements as well.

These disclaimer statements say something to the efect that motorsports racing is inherently dangorsious and death may occure for any particicpants and spectators. As a result of your participation and or being a spectator that you understand these dangers and YOU AND YOUR HEIRS WAIVE THE RIGHT TO litigation and sue in the event of a mishap and or death.

That is why there have been so few litigations about mishaps at races in the US. and the litigations that were started where quickly settled or dismissed

Motorsports can not happen without personal responsibility by the parties involved and the spectators.

Race sanctioning bodies and their insurrance companies do have very high safty standards that veniews, race promotors and teams must uphold or they dont compete.

[HORNDAWG]

I have also signed many of those particular forms. And yes they do limit the liability of the track( et al..) from the back gate crowd. Not eliminate it totally.
The spectators sign nothing, and the implied disclaimer will never hold up in court!
And yes the reason we do not hear about the litigation is that it is settled very quietly, to keep the occurrence and cost of the claims down!

L.P.

[old man]

In Europe we have similar disclaimers all round but in these poitically correct days of over protection it may be that some people would try a case anyway. The worst ever accident was about 1954/5/6 at LM when a Mercedes disintigrated on the pit straight after hiting another car and killed over 80 people so far as I can remember. The race continued and has been run ever since. On the other hand Switzerland banned all motor racing from then on and that ban is still in place so it can happen.

Cool suits do it for most drivers but I saw one get out of a closed 550 this year after the first stint and could not believe how bad he was, he came in early because of his problems. Some people can cope better than others and it does depend on driving style and fitness, some drivers just have the skill to do it with less physical effort, compare Mansell and Schumaker!

Safety developments are part of the scene now but it can never be "safe" to race cars or bikes, we just have to do our best, being old I remember when crash helmets were new!!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TWK

On that sentiment, I'll have to disagree. If they're not fit or even not "as fit," they need to find something else to do with their time (and money).

But that's not even up for debate, it's a fact.

Many gentlemen drivers are not as fit as pro's, and we know pro drivers often suffer in extreme conditions or intense competition.

You see it week in, week out.

If something as simple as A/C can help all, I don't see the problem.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

You named accidents, you missed the boat race a few years ago where a boat charged out of the water and into a crowd, but now give the court cases that shut down the motorsport events this happened at.

If the dooms day scenario were true, these cases would have caused the end of motorsports; they did not.

To compare accidents which were the result of how physics act on a moving object, with a supposition that suddenly drivers getting hot, will cause them to happen whole sale, unless fascist style rules are suddnely employed and enforced, in a draconian manner, does not cut the mustard.

If motorsports are in such a mental state that the worse case scenario has even a slight chance of becoming anything but rare, then it IS TIME to pull the plug.
Bob

Maybe the race organisors felt morally obliged to protect paying spectators, officials and competitors.

I wouldn't like to think I had cars in my series that could disintegrate and fly into spectator areas, nor would I consider it OK to let drivers frazzle in a race car, hour after hour, when very simple counter measures can prevent this from happening.

[AU N EGL]

The FIA has many many standards for saftey in all areas or motorsports and automobiles

Stardards:
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/standregs.html

Drivers Equipment Regulations: ( Helmets, Harness, Clothing etc)
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations...equipregs.html

Circuit Regulations:
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/circuitregs.html

FIA Medical Regulations
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/medregs.html

[HORNDAWG]

And ????????

L.P.

[The Badger]

I reckon the world has gone mad !!!

We all know motorsport is potentially dangerous , both inside the car and outside the car . But so is mountain climbing and canoeing and crossing the bloody road . If we want to attend a dangerous sport , then we should be let make up our own minds and not have that privilage taken away from us by a bunch of rule makers who are turning our world into a joke .

If you want tobacco sponsorship on your car , why not ?
If you want alcohol sponsorship on your car , why not ?

What happened to the word "free trade" ? I personally get annoyed with insurance companies ..... but you dont hear me nagging about a car sponsored by one .

Equally about oil companies . The profits that they make each year , but at the cost of many other people in Asia and Africa ..... ive seen it !!!

But I dont crib about it either .

And , Le Mans was changed because of the arrogance of Mercedes Benz . Who did 20,000 kilometers of testing on their CLK . It flipped , but no other car did that !!! And Benz blamed the curcuit ..... thanks for that ..... instead of admitting their blame too .



Half of the reason the things we like get changed is because of some fool who does something exceedingly stupid and then tries to sue someone else for their own mistake . Like the stupid dick that engaged the cruise control of his Winnabago and then left the seat so he could go back and make himself a cup of coffee , and remarkably it ran off the road . He gat a brand new Winnabago and several million dollars as a reward for being a dick !!!

The governments take heed and try to stop it from happening again ..... thats why we have stupid rules , because of stupid people . And slowly our little world is changing , governments are making more rules because they think that they have to protect us from ourselves !!!

[dj choc ice]

i believe the term is we live in a letigous world were stupidity is awarded and intelligence is not with motorsport i believe it should be this "cant stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen" in other words dont come in if you are going to be a pain and a problem i was surprised that the track changed the hill on the mulsanne straight after the kink okay i can live with that but the stupid dunlop curves have taken away the iconic section of the track the downhill blast to the esses and the track being changed again for "safety reasons" as i recall in 2004 and 2005 there was 2 bad crashes and they happened nowere near were the works happened the start finish straight and dunlop chicane is now nothing but a sea of gravel and so is the run down to the esses.

with motorsport i like to get close to the action not to be far away from it because some spaz got cut by a piece of flying rubber and the cars are slowing down on the straights more and more and although the current cars are very quick i think maybe the ACO might just get some more big manufacturers not by pedalling the short term solution which is diesel because believe me the diesel thing is going to coma back round and bite not just the ACO's bum but our's very hard as well, in my opinon the thing that could be pushing manufacturers away is that the ACO keep changing the rules all the time an example is the porsche RS spyder evo one minute it was legal and with one fell swoop the ACO made that car illegal well done ACO you pushed away a big manufacturer

another thing is slowing the audi diesels down why not make the other petrol cars as quick as the unburdened diesel audi's i mean the LMP2 cars are as quick as the LMP1 cars pretty much i would let the audi's run at 900kg with their estimated 680-700bhp but let the petrol cars with around 610-630bhp run at 850kg and have 650bhp wouldnt that move the cars performance forward and still keep things even?

i will admit since 2005 i have not been keen on the ACO making cars heavier and less powerful is not the way forward we are going backwards and i think yes the audi's won i hate the audis because they are diesel's even though i love the way the R10 looks what the ACO should have done was not slow down the audi's but speed the other cars up to keep with the audi's which would have been a better thing to do in my opinion

[Graham Goodwin]

This might sound patronising dj but you might want to try using some punctuation - Seriously your stuff is really difficult to read which makes it rather difficult to take seriously

[dj choc ice]

no offence ok but i am sick and bloody tired of the whole grammar punctuation thing this is a forum not a school if i want to be lectured on my english skills i will ask my english teacher

rant over back on topic

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

no offence ok but i am sick and bloody tired of the whole grammar punctuation thing this is a forum not a school if i want to be lectured on my english skills i will ask my english teacher

rant over back on topic

Without regard to what one's point is or is not; if one does not want to take the time to write in an easily decipherabe manner, for other readers sake, then the message becomes semi-mute do to poor communication, and the readers, who are being showed a lack of respect, have every right to address the writer in a similar manner that he addresses them.

Your writing is hard to decipher, yet when one says so, in a polite manner, and asks if you could write in the manner of the norm, a grade school level temper tantrum is the result.

Perfect grammar is not asked for, but an attempt to keep one's grammar above a grade shcool level is preferrable.
Bob

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I reckon the world has gone mad !!!

We all know motorsport is potentially dangerous , both inside the car and outside the car . But so is mountain climbing and canoeing and crossing the bloody road . If we want to attend a dangerous sport , then we should be let make up our own minds and not have that privilage taken away from us by a bunch of rule makers who are turning our world into a joke .

If you want tobacco sponsorship on your car , why not ?
If you want alcohol sponsorship on your car , why not ?

What happened to the word "free trade" ? I personally get annoyed with insurance companies ..... but you dont hear me nagging about a car sponsored by one .

Equally about oil companies . The profits that they make each year , but at the cost of many other people in Asia and Africa ..... ive seen it !!!

But I dont crib about it either .

And , Le Mans was changed because of the arrogance of Mercedes Benz . Who did 20,000 kilometers of testing on their CLK . It flipped , but no other car did that !!! And Benz blamed the curcuit ..... thanks for that ..... instead of admitting their blame too .



Half of the reason the things we like get changed is because of some fool who does something exceedingly stupid and then tries to sue someone else for their own mistake . Like the stupid dick that engaged the cruise control of his Winnabago and then left the seat so he could go back and make himself a cup of coffee , and remarkably it ran off the road . He gat a brand new Winnabago and several million dollars as a reward for being a dick !!!

The governments take heed and try to stop it from happening again ..... thats why we have stupid rules , because of stupid people . And slowly our little world is changing , governments are making more rules because they think that they have to protect us from ourselves !!!

Unfortunately we live in the real work not a 'what if' utopia.

Having said that, if our biggest complaint is AC it can't be all bad!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

i will admit since 2005 i have not been keen on the ACO making cars heavier and less powerful is not the way forward we are going backwards and i think yes the audi's won i hate the audis because they are diesel's even though i love the way the R10 looks what the ACO should have done was not slow down the audi's but speed the other cars up to keep with the audi's which would have been a better thing to do in my opinion

TBH, since 2003 I can't fault what the ACO have done, I've agreed with almost every move they've made.

They've finally dragged the sport up from the stagnation and mediocrity that had set, given manufactuers the opportunity to build technologically advanced, exciting cars that are quicker than ever, and given the European protoype scene a good kick up the backside with the introduction of the LMS.

I really feared for the sport when Group C bit the dust and we were left with those god awful Kremer and Courage frankenstein cars, backed up by suped up Carrera Cup cars!

Then, largely thanks to FIA incompetence, the GT1 class of old was
allowed to imploed, leaving a vacum with **** poor protoype and GT series in Europe.

I honestly feel we've never had it so good and are on the brink of a SUSTAINED golden period, as the ACO have learned from the FIA's past mistakes .

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Unfortunately we live in the real work not a 'what if' utopia.

Having said that, if our biggest complaint is AC it can't be all bad!

Yet, all the excuses for the draconian rules, including not only air-conditioning but that it must produce a specific level or you are out, are based on "what if" scenarios.

Bob

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

TBH, since 2003 I can't fault what the ACO have done, I've agreed with almost every move they've made.

They've finally dragged the sport up from the stagnation and mediocrity that had set, given manufactuers the opportunity to build technologically advanced, exciting cars that are quicker than ever, and given the European protoype scene a good kick up the backside with the introduction of the LMS.

I really feared for the sport when Group C bit the dust and we were left with those god awful Kremer and Courage frankenstein cars, backed up by suped up Carrera Cup cars!

Then, largely thanks to FIA incompetence, the GT1 class of old was
allowed to imploed, leaving a vacum with **** poor protoype and GT series in Europe.

I honestly feel we've never had it so good and are on the brink of a SUSTAINED golden period, as the ACO have learned from the FIA's past mistakes .

It is good to see one who sees the current situation as positive, don't know why you do, but optimism leads to longer life.

Now perhaps things are looking better on that side of the pond and good for you, but here 2003 was the highlight, and statistics based on grid size, and GT1 wins, not based on race-by-race, penalties says so.
The racing until things fell apart in the mid-nineties was definitely better than as of right now, for a number of reasons, of which variety, and a lack of hurdles to enter was a large part.
Even then some lessor gt org. made a good show with what was left.

Having just bought a magazine with an article on Corvettes racing in Europe, I can actually see why you may be a good deal more optimistic, were that it were so over here.
Bob