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Old 27 Nov 2017, 08:26 (Ref:3783388)   #106
crmalcolm
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
RBR and STR have been using Mobile products this year. The only Renault powered teams to do so. The factory Renault team has been using BP/Castrol as of the start of the 2017 season.

Mobile ended it's partnership with McLaren for this year and linked up with RBR. Honda then linked up with BP/Castrol for 2017. Honda and BP/Castrol already have had commercial partnerships in other racing series such as WRC and WTCC.

In 2018 McLaren will stay with BP/Castrol, and be Renault powered. So this ties in with the factory Renault team which will also be using BP/Castrol. Leaving RBR the only Renault powered team not using BP/Castrol. Staying with Mobile instead. STR will also be staying with Mobile, but will be Honda powered. A request was made by RedBull for Honda to switch to Mobile for 2018. Honda agreed to the switch. Mobile were not so willing. One reason for the Mobile and McLaren split was because of McLaren's poor performances with the Honda engines.

Next year, Mobile will have two different engines (Honda and Renault) to develop specific fuels for. Not an easy task, as BP/Castrol found out this year having to develop fuels for both the Honda and Renault engines themselves. Mobile only had the one engine (Renault in the RBR and STR cars) for 2017, but will now have to work with two engine brands for 2018.

Shell will be supplying Ferrari, Sauber and Haas in 2018. All powered by Ferrari. Mercedes, Williams and Force India will be using Petronas with the Mercedes engines. BP/Castrol, Shell and Petronas all have just the one engine to concentrate on. Mobile on the other hand, will have a bigger workload in 2018.
Is there much room for development and deviation in the fuel though?
The Technical Regulations regarding fuel are fairly constringent and allow little room for variation - and the onus should be on the engine designers to produce an ICE that performs within the fuel parameters.

The lubricants though are an area that will pose a big challenge if working on two different units. It will be interesting to see if Mobil are singled out for criticism if their is a significant difference in performance between the units.

NB: I'm one of those that believe in supporting the companies that support my interests. Mobil have supported / supplied F1 for a number of years now so it would be good to recognise the correct spelling of their brand.

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Old 8 Dec 2017, 15:33 (Ref:3785852)   #107
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Day old news at this point. But restructuring at Honda continues...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/h...ul-986597/amp/

So Hasegawa is out and his role is being split between two people. One for race operations (Toyoharu Tanabe) and another for engine development (Yasuaki Asaki).

Some comments I have read elsewhere...

* Writing has probably been on the wall for a long time with respect to Hasegawa
* Trying to handle both race/tech plus running the engine program is probably too much for a single person. He probably had to spend a good bit of time going back and forth between Milton Keynes and Sakura. Especially if it is not going well. So a split in the responsibilities is probably a good thing. I assume one will be based in Milton Keynes (Tanabe) and the other (Asaki) at Sakura. Each focusing on their part and not traveling so much.
* Hasegawa likely also burnt out given the pressure.
* Likely a good bit of unhappy folks at Honda in that Hasegawa absorbed many hits that should have been taken by McLaren. Reading elsewhere that Honda insiders say while Honda didn't perform as they should (particularly with respect to the MGU-H design), a number of other issues were also caused by McLaren (installation issues, McLaren parts that failed, etc.) Finger was not pointed at McLaren for those failures, while McLaren had no problem pointing fingers at Honda. Maybe Tanabe will stand up more for Honda?

Should be an interesting 2018 season.

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Old 11 Dec 2017, 12:03 (Ref:3786264)   #108
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
For me the MGU-H is the most stupid idea ever to be allowed in motorsport......totally not road relevant, and adds nothing to the F1 spectacle other than geekery.......I have worked on these technologies for 2 years and let me assure you the OEM's are not interested in them whatsoever when you tell them it will add €300 to the on-cost of a vehicle engine, for about 3% fuel save, at best......no fun to drive, just geekery.

dropping the MGU-H for 2020 gets my vote.

Just seen this on Autosport

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature...d-mclarenhonda

so the oil tank on McLarens side was a duffer........but like said above, plenty wrong on both sides

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Old 11 Dec 2017, 12:07 (Ref:3786266)   #109
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Both Honda and STR must be hoping that is the case
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Old 11 Dec 2017, 12:51 (Ref:3786281)   #110
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I can imagine the likes of Christian Horner and Helmut Marko will provide any possible resource to STR and Honda in order to make the partnership work ASAP.

it still wouldnt surprise me to see RB swap to Honda for 2018 now that the Renault relationship is yet again at a rock bottom low. Toto Wolff was right, Horner & co talked themselves out of the Renaut deal.
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Old 11 Dec 2017, 15:25 (Ref:3786315)   #111
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Just seen this on Autosport

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature...d-mclarenhonda

so the oil tank on McLarens side was a duffer........but like said above, plenty wrong on both sides
That article is behind the paywall. Can you summarize?

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Old 11 Dec 2017, 15:45 (Ref:3786317)   #112
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
nope.......I cant see it either!.......but you get the tone from the first sentence in the article.....six to one and half a dozen to the other.....for me a classic case of collective stupidity........both sides equally responsible......

I can imagine it will be a real war in 2018 between Torro-Rosso and McLaren........both will be out to prove ......"ah it was those plebs who were the problem"..... and generally finger point at each other all season long in 2018......brace yourselves!
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Old 11 Dec 2017, 18:13 (Ref:3786339)   #113
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Just seen this on Autosport

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature...d-mclarenhonda

so the oil tank on McLarens side was a duffer........but like said above, plenty wrong on both sides
The oil tank in question is part of the power package supplied by Honda and not something that McLaren provided according to the article - only seeing a headline has drawn you to an incorrect conclusion.

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That article is behind the paywall. Can you summarize?

Richard
It's a lengthy article but is written around an interview with Yusuke Hasegawa and goes through the long list of problems that Honda had with their 2017 power plant. All the problems listed were of Honda's own making - some of them magnified by the poor pre-season testing reliability of the power unit and the resultant lack of testing distance and time.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 14:28 (Ref:3786562)   #114
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It's always McLaren's fault according to Honda. They need to buck up their ideas with STR or they'll look pretty ridiculous
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 15:41 (Ref:3786571)   #115
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Tost can get very, very cranky. None of that Zak Brown diplomacy with him. Any pride and lack of performance from Honda will not be received well.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 17:40 (Ref:3786596)   #116
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It's always McLaren's fault according to Honda. They need to buck up their ideas with STR or they'll look pretty ridiculous
Actually, that is not my impression (based upon published interviews). No dodging this point... Honda has clearly screwed up, and McLaren has publicly roasted them for this. However, when issues have been caused by McLaren, generally it has been talked about as "team" problems (team = McLaren + Honda with actual blame as to "who" being nebulous). So in short, Honda deserves most of the blame, but McLaren has generally avoided accepting ANY blame.

One interesting note, is that I read elsewhere that McLaren went against Honda's recommendations on cooling. In that to implement what Honda wanted, that it would compromise the aero too much. And that changes had to be made to the McLaren setup part way through the year. This might be "part" of the issue with the MGU-H (however most likely the vast majority are at due to Honda design problems). My point is that examples of McLaren being a cook for the nasty pie that was McLaren/Honda 2017 can be found!

It's mostly a moot point now. Hopefully someone will write a book about it all! I expect thing will be better with Torro Rosso, but I also feel Torro Rosso will have other issues to deal with. And that even a resurgent Honda is not going to change things much. I really hope I am wrong.

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Old 12 Dec 2017, 20:12 (Ref:3786644)   #117
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Even if TR gets as competitive as McLaren next year they would still suffer due to poor driver lineup. I would put their current lineup as weak as Buemi/Alguersuari duo. They will blitz from time to time but eventually both would be dropped within two seasons max.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 20:15 (Ref:3786645)   #118
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Hasn't one of the main failings been that the Honda suffered from internal vibrations that caused the PUs and components to become extremely fragile?

This doesn't seem to have been discussed lately.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 20:46 (Ref:3786654)   #119
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Hasn't one of the main failings been that the Honda suffered from internal vibrations that caused the PUs and components to become extremely fragile?

This doesn't seem to have been discussed lately.
That's the bit that I kept hearing over and over (when I say hearing, I mean podcasts and news reports, I don't have inside knowledge!). The engine performed fine on a test bed, but then rattled itself to bits in a car.

Do the testing regulations allow you to shove the engine in another car (say, an NSX Super GT car) for testing, to see if it's the car causing it?

I know it's been said that McLaren ignored Hondas cooling recommendations, but playing devils advocate - was it ignored because it required so much cooling that it was clearly a huge issue? If it requires such babying, you could argue the car would've been last anyway, and people would blame McLaren for the bad car. By ignoring the cooling, you get to blow up the engine a lot, and blame Honda, whilst still being last anyway.
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Old 13 Dec 2017, 03:44 (Ref:3786730)   #120
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Hasn't one of the main failings been that the Honda suffered from internal vibrations that caused the PUs and components to become extremely fragile?

This doesn't seem to have been discussed lately.
I suspect it hasn’t been discussed as I think it has been resolved. My understanding from reading elsewhere is that the driveline inertia was higher than expected. So on gear shifts, and with a low inertia engine, it would create enough oscillations that it caused problems. Temporary solution was to move shift points up into a higher rpm range. The higher shift points and audible oscillations were notable. However I think later in the season they started to shift at a lower rpm and the audible oscillations were gone or reduced. So I assume they resolved the issue.

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