The end is nigh? or a shifting tide?

[zefarelly]

Today I've read the Octane article about the state of historic racing, and more specifically that purporting to be 'FiA' . . . which is a conversation in itself, then swiftly read emails from the HSCC about the apparent demise of the 3 hour Guards race . . . . now reduced to 1 hour due to a poor entry.

Its not just tyre supply . . . . are we seeing a larger proportion of 'normal' people staying at home ? There are a multitude of reasons why, but they all add up to what could well be the beginning of the end as some of us see it ?

What next ?

[JFW]

It's all got stupid expensive Joe


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[JFW]

Licence, helmet, hans, suit, gloves, seat, belts, extinguisher. papers. A grand each per car and driver. For the casual racer, it's a nightmare. 15 years ago it was 500 - 800 and you could use a normal car, not a hot rod.


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[zefarelly]

It seems to me the middle tier, which is the back bone of it all, is being blown oout of the water, priced out of the market a
nd so comparatively slow its embarassing.

The Goodwood comments in Octane is laughable. They are the root of a lot of the
problems.

[terence]

In what respect?

[Mike Harte]

Joe, as much as anything, I would say that it's just a cyclical moment; one that has happened for as long as I can remember. It certainly happened at the end of the sixties/beginning of the seventies, when it started to become a necessity to either have a very healthy bank balance or access to a benign sponsor.

This was why I packed it in. I needed to replace my weary engine which was no longer competitive with my peers, and it would have cost a fortune (to me, a self funder) to source a replacement. And at that time, cars were becoming far more sophisticated, and so other areas of the car would have needed upgrading to keep up. Up to that time, most of the work I had done myself or had been done by my work's engineering shop, but the new stuff was beyond our limited capabilities - we were not motor based - and a replacement engine would probably have to have been a Cosworth type twinky, and I possibly couldn't have rebuilt one of them; back then, I completely rebuilt my pushrod job at least once a month.

My guess is that the madness will continue for a little while, and then stabilise for some time allowing peeps to get their breath back again, before someone else starts the ball rolling again. The problem is that racing drivers on the whole (and car owners) are a competitive lot, and they don't like their prized possessions being beaten on the track, and this drives the spending wars as much as anything.

[delta]

I say this every year and no one listens to me . "There is too much historic motor sport ". Somthing will have to give way and Im afraid HSCC Snetterton is just not as attractive as say Dijon or Monza . Before Dikko comes on yes we know FF 1600 is still very healthy . Owners with cars that have a choice to race in will always pick and chose the attractive race meetings . I've had this idea about a historic under 2 litre race for single seaters . "No F2cars "maybe now is the time to act . There are loads of cars stuck in garages with no place to run . Renualt1700 old F4 cars and F1300. Also an libre race would give owners a chance to have an extra race or share a car . WDYT

[JFW]

Bring it on

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[relativtortoise]

it is not just the middle tier.....

I had a spare hour the other weekend and went to my local sprint - it's part of a 16 round championship and features everything from 60's Minis to brand new Porsches.

I took part for three consecutive years up until five years back and it was then 20 rounds and it had 100+ entries every time.

This venue is one of the better ones but there were only 74 runners which at that (MOD) venue makes it barely viable due to the hire cost - the long term sponsor is finishing at the end of this year and actually why not as there are only 24 registered for the championship.

This is grass roots stuff and it was sad to see......

[zefarelly]

So overall cost is becoming prohibitive at all levels?
It affects me, but that's as much to do with personal circumstance, compared to when I started.

What concerns me more is the unsustainable rate of development within a fixed arena, and the unashamed rewriting of history. Too many people are in on the game, far too deeply, to have the balls to stand up and say it out loud. They have far too much invested within.

[Colin McKay]

I read the Octane article on Friday night in the Silverstone paddock. What struck me is why Simon Hadfield is the only name quoted above the parapet??? Here are the thoughts of a racer who spends much more than he should on a hobby, and I can understand why the cyclical thing happens and probably always will.

Naively I got into the E-type thing 5 years ago thinking I could mess with the midfielders and have some good racing, just as I had in touring cars before. But when even the also rans are spending 6 figures on an engine, I've spent 5 years dragging around at the back with only occasional highlights, kept going by the fact that it's such a wonder to drive and a joy in itself. I've now accepted that the cost is pure indulgence and the car will be offered for sale after Le Mans, which will be a great time to bow out.

Instead, my FJ offers sensibly costed racing (this is relative, people outside racing are staggered at the cost of even the most modest series) which will allow me to continue doing something I love on a lesser budget, still with all the thrills and a proper historic car which will never be pitted against something built last week. I don't begrudge the last few years, I've enjoyed every minute and have been privileged to have had the opportunity, but common sense prevails. This mindset must surely and eventually be reflected in the historic movement as a whole - I know people do, but why on earth would you spend millions (no exaggeration) for 5 minutes of glory and a tin pot at an awards dinner?

I love the sport, the family and the je ne sais quoi and as long as there's money in the bank I'll keep on keeping on, even if the bubble should burst. It's the cars that are the stars after all.

[midgetman]

It's amazing I was going to post something along these lines myself. I've ad two depressing motor sport conversations today, the second can wait a bit but the first concerned the MG Car Club, a proper "old car" club at grass roots level. A recent hill climb at Scammonden attracted under THIRTY entries! Yes, fewer than THIRTY.

I am quite sure it is the cost of competing that is putting drivers off. How do I know? Because I've spoken to entrants who are not going to spend 500 upwards just to compete two or three times a year. I despair for the sport. I'm also seriously worried for myself, speed events have traditionally been a major market for me.

Which brings me on to my second conversation, with a major UK manufacturer pulling out of producing FIA clothing because the costs are just too high. Not the cost of production, the cost of homologation and ongoing compliance. More British skills lost. Less choice for you.

It's so depressing. I don't think this is cyclical, the sport is losing club competitors hand over fist. Over regulation is presenting a barrier to entry at one extreme and over competitiveness driving people like Colin away at the other.

[terence]

The biggest pity is that the FIA ever got involved.Their "fringe costs" like HTP or whatever its called now was original meant to control the riduculous mods seen today.
Ive quoted him before but will quote Jeremy again."Forget Historic Racing Terry,it will be F×××ed in ten years".That was eight years ago.I think he knew what he was talking about.FIA has just become to powerfull in something they dont have much interest in-apart from the Cash Cow they created.For them its money for old rope.

[Peter Mallett]

I haven't read the Octane article so can't comment on its content. As to the current malaise? I also received the HSCC e mail and it is a shame that the 3hrs is now reduced to 1 hour. That said I got the impression that in this case, there was concern about tyres rather than costs.

However, I'm somewhat in a similar position to Colin in that I feel I'm going backwards. Partly due to talent, I acknowledge, but also because the grids we are entering are almost 50% professionals now. Goodwood is the exception, where you expect it but at Donington I shared the grid with Tim Harvey, Patrick Watts, Gordon Sheddon, Matt Neil plus numerous others. Basically I'm going to be an also ran in that kind of company and I wonder why I do it? My engine, being brand new, was a bit down on power which we are trying to solve but even with the old engine I could never have kept up with Tim H.

I'm entered for Silverstone and Spa but I will consider the whole thing after that, as great as it is sharing the track with the experts, it just doesn't seem worth it to be lapped by an equivalent car. All of the engines in the Rovers are built by the same person and I know what the differences are between the fuel injected versions and mine.

We are off to Spa for the three hours in June with the MGB, which I havent't driven since 2013. We've entered with the Legendary Circuits organisation in the hope that the big guns will be playing elsewhere and we can just enjoy the event.

Watch this space.

[zefarelly]

I might add that certain types of cars seem to be more susceptible than others to development. Obviously GT's and saloons spring to mind. FJ&HFF should be applauded for their management in this instance, possibly due to having a simple make up from the outset.

When I look at my lap times and consider my abilities, as a part time driver and preparer, I consider my self mid field, but still appear to be slipping down the grids, despite having taken significant times off various lap times over the last 12 years.

I'm also more aware of the drop off in business as the preparation teams ,Hoover up all the work, and the little guys get scraps at best. I'm actually looking for a proper job again!

[JFW]

I concur Joe, we tried very hard to discourage development in other than safety in HFF. It is not easy and very much against the tide of popularity and organisers stakes. Fortunately the rules had a lot of foresight within them.

Sorry to hear it's not as busy as you would want, I have been moaning about the money in the sport all going up the chain, this feels like a very real example of that. Maybe if a bubble burst, someone would realise 'they' can't do it without 'us'. Until then......


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[Duddha]

May I just say that what is driving people out of the sport isn't just linked to a single element being the papers, the ruling body or an organiser, it's a chain.

Historic motor sport is becoming more and more professional for a simple reason which is that modern motor sport has become way too expensive and has driven people to other categories.

Therefore, we see more and more people, not just drivers but also preparers and also engineers getting into the historic scene.

At a fraction of a GT3 season cost or whatever serious series, you can buy success in historic.

You can hire an engineer to mastermind your suspension or whatever component in order to get faster.

Development is driving people out as in any form of motor sport, development is what makes it really expensive and it now is part of every level of historic racing.

Just look at the trend, my first revival was in 2006 and I've been around looking at lap times for 10 years.

The 2006 Goodwood Revival TT pole (Shelby Cobra) was a 1.31.697 back then and we are now in 2016 with a 1.23.981 (Shelby Cobra Daytona R) and the cars have gained 14km/h of average speed on a single lap.

For an E-Type, it's gone even "better" with a 1.37.343 (141.62km/h) and we're now seeing them lap at 1.25.190 and with an average speed of 160.93km/h !

I am a big supporter of the driver and car "package" but someone who will tell me that here it's down to the drivers making the difference in lap times and average speed, well I'm not that stupid and this is the perfect example of the actual historic scene.

The development cars which used to show up at certain events are now everywhere and to support some people here, what is the point to go historic racing if it's only to see modern cars that sort of look historic...

[relativtortoise]

Although not strictly historic focused if you want access to track time there are two ways and these days they could not be more polarised in regulation.

For one you a need a medical/licence/overalls/gloves/cage/HANS/belts/right tyres/scrutineered car/extinguisher....and if you have any left also some money.

The other you just need some money and into the deal you will probably get far longer in circuit time.

It is no wonder track days are such big business.

[Alan Morgan]

Originally Posted by relativtortoise

Although not strictly historic focused if you want access to track time there are two ways and these days they could not be more polarised in regulation.

For one you a need a medical/licence/overalls/gloves/cage/HANS/belts/right tyres/scrutineered car/extinguisher....and if you have any left also some money.

The other you just need some money and into the deal you will probably get far longer in circuit time.

It is no wonder track days are such big business.

I absolutely agree. Delta and I were saying the other day how much easier things were when we started in the mid-seventies when we were in our early twenties (well I was anyway). You had to buy an approved helmet and your car had to have seatbelts but other than that you bought the best overalls you could afford, sent off your £12 entry fee (about £80 in today's money), hooked up your trailer and off you went.

Now you need to take an ARDS test, pass a test to prove you can tow, buy a HANS, buy expensive overalls, gloves, boots etc, not to mention the extinguisher, silencer, transponder and so on. Oh - and pay £250+ to enter a race.

In those days, the only way of driving as fast as you could (legally) was to go racing. Trackdays now offer a low-hassle way of fulfilling that requirement..

[VIVA GT]

I know that this malaise is mentioned in respect to Historic Racing, but I think it's affecting all types of 'club' racing.
I've gone through the stages of being an avid spectator, doing a bit of racing myself, then working for a BTCC team (and involved in other racing series). In my opinion, it is the increased professionalism (i.e. cost) that is causing a lot of the problem.
Admittedly, I've been to very few race meetings since I stopped working in the sport, but at any that I have visited, (apart from the very clubby meetings) I've seen far fewer cars towed to the meeting behind the family car (which used to be driven by the racer themselves), and more drivers arriving at the circuit, to find their racing car sitting underneath the awning of their preparers race truck.
I appreciate that a lot of people on here earn their living (as I did) preparing customers cars, but all of the added razzamatazz (catering, hospitality and so on) that goes with this seriously adds to the cost, pushing the sport away from 'mere mortals'.
(I was staggered to see , when visiting a BTCC race earlier this year that nearly everyone, including Ginetta Juniors appeared to also have a hospitality truck!)
Then, as others have said, in Historics there is the added expense of re-engineering the cars so that they perform so much better than they did back in the day, but then need the employment of a superstar driver, who is able to squeeze the last few tenths out of every lap.
I appreciate that in every form of competition, there will always some competitors with more money, so can buy the best equipment (be this a better squash racket, or a superb race engine built out of unobtanium) but from where I'm standing, the gap between the two is getting wider as the years go by.

[zefarelly]

Personally I see the 'FiA' 'App K' bit as a very minor aside to a vast majority of old style car racing, I went that route back in 2003 as it offered the broadest spectrum of opportunity and the best chance of protecting my investment. No other reasons. In reality I have only used my papers twice, in France and Belgium.

Everything else purports of pretends or just likes the idea of being an FiA event. the cost has probably been £50 a year, for me, which is utter peanuts compared to everything else.

The Fia tag is used and abused by a majority to add kudos, and cost. I don't see the FiA taking anything from preparers and the majority of race organisers? It's none of their business for a start.

[Rudernst]

I very much agree with Louis on what drives this.

especially the fact that wealthy amateur racers have moved into Historic racing from GT3, Ferrari 355/360 challenge and somesuch where you need a new car every 2 or 3 years and which truly costs a fortune, easily six figures per year
compared to that, to build and run a killer E Type or Cobra from scratch is peanut money
they bring with them an attitude towards development and means of development alien to Historic racing and much much more professional.
cars on 7 post shaker rigs, drivers preparing events in simulators, data logging
aero work in full size tunnels,
computer suspension modelling, setup advice on consultancy basis by ex F1 engineers
believe me, this all is really happening
and what have you
of course this goes on mainly in the "prestige" classes and at the "prestige" events
but some of the development filters down to the clubman level of historic racing

Hadfield nailed it with his comment here on the forum that "our" old style of historic racing feels like bringing a knife to a gunfight sometimes.
absolutely priceless remark

the other thing:
now that playing tennis or golf is nothing special anymore, Historic Racing is the current thing to do for bragging rights at the dinner table of the well to do.
the alternative is playing polo which is even more expensive than historic racing and much more dangerous, and not for you if you dont like horses

Historic Racing is losing its innocence really fast
very quickly in some categories
slower in others

some events and series feel like billionaires playgrounds
and that puts me off

I have limited my racing to HSCC conciously this season
because this still feels like clubman racing to me as much as it is possible today
Cadwell Park last year was wonderfull

I am looking at cost controlled spec racing, such as Fun Cup, Sakers and the like
but i am not yet ready to make the jump
what holds me in Historic racing is the number of friendships that i have built up and my love of single seater racing, and there are no modern spec amateur single seater formulas.

I dont see that the end is near
rather that we are on a slow journey to burst the bubble
then some will move elsewhere
either into other froms of racing
or into other sports

RE

[GORDON STREETER]

The writing was on the wall for me a few years back when I entered an off season winter race, now this was basically a "clubbie" event but two entrants arrived by helicopter with their cars already prepared and waiting with a team of mechanics.
However I actually beat them in the races and it was brilliant to see them inspecting my "old nail" to see how I'd done it !

[gary396]

Originally Posted by Duddha

......The development cars which used to show up at certain events are now everywhere and to support some people here, what is the point to go historic racing if it's only to see modern cars that sort of look historic...

So what, in any, is the role of the FIA in addressing this issue Louis?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

I absolutely agree. Delta and I were saying the other day how much easier things were when we started in the mid-seventies when we were in our early twenties (well I was anyway). You had to buy an approved helmet and your car had to have seatbelts but other than that you bought the best overalls you could afford, sent off your £12 entry fee (about £80 in today's money), hooked up your trailer and off you went.

Now you need to take an ARDS test, pass a test to prove you can tow, buy a HANS, buy expensive overalls, gloves, boots etc, not to mention the extinguisher, silencer, transponder and so on. Oh - and pay £250+ to enter a race.

In those days, the only way of driving as fast as you could (legally) was to go racing. Trackdays now offer a low-hassle way of fulfilling that requirement..

Quite agree Alan, although when I started the entry fee was £18

We are planning to get the old PRS on track again but the cost of getting it ready for racing is looking bloody expensive. The rebuild is fairly cheap but....