[Team] Lotus to race against Lotus

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Fox89

Er... it does? Why? Because if not ownership is passed to a company with a similar name?

A lawyer I'm not, I admit, but everything I've seen from both parties surrounding this case lead me to believe that Fernandes has a cast iron case. Heck, Group's entire premise for taking legal action in the first place was by very carefully not using the word "Team" when referring to Fernandes' misuse of "Lotus".

I'm not so sure its that clear cut. If Hunt had fielded a Formula One team called 'Team Lotus' during the intervening period, then it probably would be. But he didn't. In fact he did nothing whatsoever with the name.

I don't know the details either, but I imagine he owned the rights to that name, when used as a Formula One team, and nothing else. It may be similar to somebody who buys the domain name of a multinational trademark, then tries to sell it to them at an inflated price. In law those cases have been found in favour of the entity using the trademark.

We'll have to see what the High Court says.

[Fox89]

Originally Posted by Rgms320

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you, Fox.

Now, I guess I need to do some homework to find out why Hunt didn't give Tony a license in the first place.

What a mess!

There's a lot of good information on SaveTeamLotus.com, worth seeing if your question is covered somewhere there

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I hope another team changes their name to Equipe Lotus and runs the Gold Leaf livery, my favourite colour scheme of all time.

Funny you say that, I have imagined a livery based on that using the AirAsia shade of red rather than the Gold Leaf one.

Originally Posted by davyboy

I'm not so sure its that clear cut. If Hunt had fielded a Formula One team called 'Team Lotus' during the intervening period, then it probably would be. But he didn't. In fact he did nothing whatsoever with the name.

Didn't he own Team Lotus for its last few races?

[Rgms320]

Originally Posted by Fox89

There's a lot of good information on SaveTeamLotus.com, worth seeing if your question is covered somewhere there

Good idea. I perused that site shortly after its URL was published, but didn't have this question in mind when I did. I'll give it another look-see.

Many thanks!

Tom

[Jamesy-18]

People in Formula One are great when it comes to aerodynamics. Not so great when it comes to common sense.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

People in Formula One are great when it comes to aerodynamics.

Not always!

[gttouring]

is this a Red Bull-Torro Rosso set up?
or is it two different 'Lotus' teams?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by gttouring

is this a Red Bull-Torro Rosso set up?
or is it two different 'Lotus' teams?

Totally different teams. Both laying claim to the Lotus name.

[Down F0rce]

Different entities all together. From Jalopnik:

[Fox89]

Mike Gascoyne talking about the possibility of keeping green/yellow livery for Team Lotus with fans on twitter. He took a quick poll and 77% voted to keep it.

I hope they do now, it will make identifying things easier and help distinguish Team Lotus from their big bully namesakes.

[Jamesy-18]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Not always!

Hahaha, good point.

is this a Red Bull-Torro Rosso set up?
or is it two different 'Lotus' teams?

Two different as already said, but I chose to make that comparison basically because they have the same name, they run roughly the same colour scheme, they both say "Red Bull" on the cars, etc...

Anyway, my head hurts from all this. I need a lie-down. It's hard to understand for people who (think they) know what it's all about. Imagine what casual fans will think to this...

[gillesf]

I don’t get this at all.

Chapman was the owner, builder, manufacturer and sole owner builder/engineer/designer of a race team under his company Lotus.

1Malaysia used the Lotus name to hang on a race team. 1Malaysia is the manufacture or more correctly the buyer of a sub contracted race car. They are not Lotus but simply 1Malaysia using the Lotus name to race a purchased race car chassis.

To quote Gascoyne "Colin Chapman was about engineering, about making and engineering race cars. That’s what Team Lotus did; That's what we do here." ......do they build the car??

I think he forgets that Colin Chapman was Lotus and Team Lotus an extension of the manufacture. Seems he is laying claim to Colin Chapman’s work or creation rather than a simple name.

The Lotus brand and all of what has been or ever will be is Colin Chapman’s creation. That company "Lotus" belongs to Proton and is currently run as Group Lotus by Mr. Bahar.

They seem to be very clear that engineering a top level supercar and RE-establishing the brand is the objective. They also seem rather clear that motorsport is a very important part of that process. They also do not hide that the new cars will use sub contracted engines.

Let me put that in one line.

In house engineering, design, development and marketed through motorsport supercars using subcontracted engines.

Sounds like Lotus to me!

vs.

A race team that buys a customer supplied chassis, sub contracted engines, transmissions and technologies from other F1 teams then hangs a logo on the car and draws on the heritage to make themselves seem better than they are.

Calling that Team Lotus sounds like a joke to me!

Lotus was and still is a manufacture. Not a race team that uses a name but the manufacturer.

I really don't get this at all, support of 1Malaysia because they wish to hang a name on a sub contracted chassis and call themselves a manufacturer. Really???..... doesn't Lotus mean more than this to British history or the memory of what Colin Chapman created?

Even more to the point isn't this support misplaced; Lotus is Group Lotus the manufacturer.

Britain has once again a Lotus F1 team, shouldn't all be overjoyed that you also have managed to save (with ownership from Proton) Lotus the manufacturer, the cars, heritage and jobs that come with it.

Maybe support of the manufacture should be expressed to insure that the manufacture see's value in keeping the brand and the employees building the road cars, engineering and design divisions in Britain.

As far as not wanting to buy an Elise because of the manufacturer wanting to race with their own name, good for you.

I will be in the garage tonight sitting in my Esprit S2 dreaming of the snow melt so I can once again enjoy what Mr. Chapman built for me in a lovely shade of dark brown.

1Malaysia fighting to call itself a Lotus or in anyway linked to that heritage, give your head a shake something is wrong in your brain.

You should all be ashamed. Best wishes to Mr. Chapman’s memory and to his family as this stupidity must truly sicken them.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Didn't he own Team Lotus for its last few races?

David Hunt purchased the name from the liquidators when Team Lotus went bankrupt in 1994. His intention was to resurrect a Formula One team, but 16 years later, he still hasn't managed to do it. This places him in a rather weak position when it comes to the commercial exploitation of the brand... particularly given what Group Lotus has done over the same period.

[Fox89]

A race team that buys a customer supplied chassis, sub contracted engines, transmissions and technologies from other F1 teams then hangs a logo on the car and draws on the heritage to make themselves seem better than they are.

They don't though. They use Renault engines, sure, not sure about the transmission etc. But the chassis is 100% Team Lotus. They've not bought that from anyone. Perhaps you're thinking of HRT who used a Dallara chassis and has secured a deal for Williams gearboxes next year?

And this new "Team Lotus" has more legitimate F1 heritage then Group Lotus does, as they've actually been competing for a year.

And Group Lotus are not designing their own car at all. They're merely a sponsor and partial shareholder of the Renault team. Be under no illusions, the team Group Lotus are involved with is not a Lotus team by any stretch of the imagination. They are the Renault GP team. They are the same to Renault as Vodafone are to McLaren, Marlboro are to Ferrari and AT&T are to Williams.

and to his family as this stupidity must truly sicken them.

His family who put their support behind Tony Fernandes and the 1Malaysia outfit when he revived the Lotus brand in F1?

[PabloTeK]

Originally Posted by gillesf

I don’t get this at all.


1Malaysia used the Lotus name to hang on a race team. 1Malaysia is the manufacture or more correctly the buyer of a sub contracted race car. They are not Lotus but simply 1Malaysia using the Lotus name to race a purchased race car chassis.

As far I know Lotus use their own chassis, it's HRT that don't with the godawful Dallara thing.

[GSD]

Lotus Racing/Team Lotus/1malaysia (the gascoyne/fernandes effort) designs and builds its own chassis, in norfolk, and are currently investing in thier own wind tunnel. They are taking f1 seriously and going about it in the correct way imo.

Oh and as for the family being ashamed, the Chapman family have been well looked after and considered throughout the year by Tony F and Mike G, and certainly gave the team every blessing.

[Wims]

Who gives a damn about the Chapmans, they have nothing to do with F1. They were forced to sell their team. They have less to do with any of the teams than Eddie Jordan has to do with Force India

[Osella]

I'd be interested to hear Renault's defence outlining how this in no way benefitted from, or endorsed, cigarette sponsorship

[Sodemo]

Cigarette sponsorship should come back in my opinion, but thats a whole other thread.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Cigarette sponsorship should come back in my opinion, but thats a whole other thread.

What a smokin' idea!

Not sure what the JPS replica thing is all about? Maybe Fernandez set a trap?

[gillesf]

I can't remember where I first read a statement that the chassis was built or by who...that was maybe a year ago. Here is a statement from the head guy in a British paper.

"there is the new wind tunnel and it won’t just be that, but production for the car as well – that will lift the whole standard."

I never really questioned the fact they are planning to build the chassis because I read that they had some other company supply the chassis earlier in the year. When I read his statement I just took it that they plan to build there own chassis but maybe he was just twisting the words or I am totally wrong. I do not live or work there so I don't have fact or paperwork just his statement.

Gearbox and hydraulics are Red Bull.

" "Team Lotus" has more legitimate F1 heritage then Group Lotus does, as they've actually been competing for a year."

I never questioned that. Lotus is a corporate name not just something to claim. I could probably brew up some cola and make it fairly good. I could not claim or use the name Coca-Cola or Coke or even imply it could I?

Why is Lotus different? Lotus is a corporation owned by Group Lotus which is a sub brand of Proton.

As far as Group Lotus building their own chassis, where did you read that???

Your kidding, aren’t you?

I saw that they bought the Renault interest in the team. Is this different than Mercedes/Brawn/Honda, Red Bull/Stewart Grand Prix/Jaguar Racing, Tora Rosa/Minardi, Force India/Spyker/Jordan Grand Prix.

[gillesf]

JPS is now a Blended Scotch if I remeber correctly, or at least it was. Guess that will be a cheap F1 buy in for them to place a logo on a car.

[Marbot]

Could be Lotus or that other team....

[Fox89]

Why is Lotus different? Lotus is a corporation owned by Group Lotus which is a sub brand of Proton.

As far as Group Lotus building their own chassis, where did you read that???

Never said they did. The opposite in fact.

Lotus is a corporate name not just something to claim. I could probably brew up some cola and make it fairly good. I could not claim or use the name Coca-Cola or Coke or even imply it could I?

This is the thing, GROUP Lotus (The road car company) and TEAM Lotus are completely different organisations. They have been since they split in the '50s. Group Lotus have had absolutely nothing to do with Team Lotus in the intervening time.

So if you go to the Group Lotus website and look at their "Heritage" section, you'll see they put the success of Lotus in the '70s and '80s in there. This is, essentially, fraud. Before we even get to their F1 entry this year. Group Lotus, as a solo organisation, has NEVER competed in the F1 World Championship. And yet they claim 7 titles as part of their history? They are lying.

Because they are two separate entities (and have been for half a century), the rights to use each individual brand are separate. Fernandes used "Lotus" on its own in 2010. This was a Group Lotus brand that they had essentially leased to Fernandes. In 2011, however, he has acquired the Team Lotus rights. This is an entirely separate brand.

Group Lotus trying to claim that they own the rights to the name and history of Team Lotus is exactly the same as the Coca-Cola Company claiming that they own Pepsi.

[Marbot]

AFAIK Proton only purchased the road car side of things, and were slightly shocked, to say the least, to have found themselves to be 'not' the owners of the Lotus F1 team.

Chapman made them seperate entities, so that if one got into trouble the other would be left alone. Clever man, even now.