Spa - Eau Rouge - Pug/Audi vs F1 car?

[trahsub]

I'm sure some of you have seen this overlay (which isn't perfect, but you get the point) of some fast track day cars going through Eau Rouge vs F1 cars during the race. The speed difference is downright scary. I'm curious though how different the speeds are of a Pug 908 or R15 and an F1 car? Anyone feel like throwing a video together?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5dh...yer_detailpage

[fiend540]

That was really cool, and man do I love Spa as a race track. Never been there in person but it has been one of my favorite tracks to play in video games for a long time now.

[Purist]

That's a pretty wild visual there.

There is not as big a difference between F1 cars and the last generation of LMP1s as we see with the GTs. F1 cars enter Eau Rouge at something like 300km/h, and with tire scrub and reduction in revs due to the compression, drop a bit to 295km/h, or maybe as low as 290km/h. For the Audi and Peugeot, the figures are something like 10km/h slower. So, it's still noticeable, but it's definitely not as dramatic as with the GTs, which I would estimate get up to 270-280km/h for the highest classes, but drop off to 260km/h or so to go through Eau Rouge.

[Simmi]

I think that vid is mis-labeled as that isn't FIA GT but the speed through Eau Rouge is still immense from the F1 boys!

Hoping to get to the Belgian GP this year in addition to Le Mans. The best of both worlds I'd say.

[JAG]

The video shows road cars not FIA GT's.

[NJH]

I think this picture I took from the other year really creates a true impression of this amazing corner

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by JAG

The video shows road cars not FIA GT's.

Does give you an appreciation for how fast an F1 is though. Yikes!

DK

[Birddog07]

Originally Posted by NJH

I think this picture I took from the other year really creates a true impression of this amazing corner

Wow, thats impressive. Looks taunting enough, imagine it before with all the silly runoff. Really seperate the men from the boys. Spa is definatley a place to visit in a mans lifetime.

[chernaudi]

Only reason why the Audi and Pug diesels would be faster is because of mechanical grip--LMP1s still have much wider front wheels and tires than F1s. They also have a ton more torque, inspite of regs intended to limit the engine power to 2003 Audi R8 levels (550+bhp).

However, F1 cars are much lighter and have more downforce. So I think that the speeds are roughly comparable/fairly close when taking into consideration those variables--show how gutless F1 engines are and how much they rely on aero for grip.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by NJH

I think this picture I took from the other year really creates a true impression of this amazing corner

odd, it doesn't feel that sharp when driving it, is there a fore-shortening effect caused by the camera lens?

[NJH]

Just a touch maybe. I was stood right on the edge of the last stand, the picture is pretty much how I remember it. Something that always amazes me is how much sharper a bend looks compared to the experience in car. I was rubbish last year but mid corner through Gerrards at Mallory was pretty much bang on 90 mph. Looking at it from spectator position its hard to imagine doing 90 in there in a car on road legal tyres and no downforce. I think another factor with Eua Rouge is that its so unbelievably steep it must push the car hard into the tarmac to give a bit more grip and the line takes out the bottom of that curve in the picture anyway. The top of the hill is definitely foreshortened from that angle.

[Stahler]

This is just another angle, but anyway - the difference between an F1 car and an FIA GT1 racer is not so immense after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2eDUD-tbeg

[GTfour]

I visited a Porsche trackday weekend at Spa once, amongst, on the Sunday, all of a sudden a then Le Mans spec GT3 RS joined the fray(GruppeM If I remember correctly). The speed difference through Eau Rouge was staggering. And the wing looked huge in comparisson with the biggest ones on road GT3's and turbo's. Add to that a set of hot slicks and the distance between any 400+ bhp racecar gets a lot smaller. Then they'll all pas Eau Rouge fast...
Even my friends former Ruf BTR (425bhp)streetcar touched 220km/h at the top of Eau Rouge, to top out at a respectable 253 at the end of Kemmel straight.

[Birddog07]

Originally Posted by Stahler

This is just another angle, but anyway - the difference between an F1 car and an FIA GT1 racer is not so immense after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2eDUD-tbeg

It's still pretty staggering...

[CosworthDriver]

Eau Rouge is the best corner of all time in my opinion. Been there 3 times during F1-races (2001, 2005 and 2010). Pictures doesn't even show how steep the hill actually is! It's amazing.

[trahsub]

Someone else was curious and created a new overlay. Not sure exactly what race is the GT/LMP overlay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxoQt1cY8Rw

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Only reason why the Audi and Pug diesels would be faster is because of mechanical grip--LMP1s still have much wider front wheels and tires than F1s. They also have a ton more torque, inspite of regs intended to limit the engine power to 2003 Audi R8 levels (550+bhp).

However, F1 cars are much lighter and have more downforce. So I think that the speeds are roughly comparable/fairly close when taking into consideration those variables--show how gutless F1 engines are and how much they rely on aero for grip.

You're not relying much on mechanical grip through a corner like Eau Rouge. It's mostly aero grip at those speeds. And do F1 cars have more downforce? I think downforce levels between the two are largely similar (within 15%), it's just that the LMP cars weigh approaching 1000 lbs more. That works against them through Eau Rouge.

[chernaudi]

As stated, LMP1's have much wider front tires on them, which in theory gives them a mechanical grip advantage, and we've seen the old Audi R8 nearly have the front end busted off of it and it still ran competitive lap times, irregardless of corners, which means that it relied heavily on the front diffuser for areo grip, or had enough mechanical grip to overcome any areo short comings. The more grip, the better, especially mechanical, as body damage will have no effect on that.

The bigger reason for the wider fronts is that, like the Audi R8 and Bentley Speed 8, we're starting to get back to where LMPs are starting to virge on being nose heavy, with a near 50/50 WD. Wider front tires/wheels are desireable for that end. F1 cars have narrow monocoques up front and they widen at the rear for the engine.

This bit of info may be out of date, but for a few years, F1 cars have virged on a 40/60WD, and the Audi R10 and perhaps the Peugeot 908 virged on that. But then came the Acura ARX-02 and the Audi R15, cars that came close to having a 50/50 WD, and wider wheels (13.5x18 vs 13x18) for the R15 returned, and the 14.5x18 wheels on the Acura ARX-02, and the Audi R18 and Peugeot 90X.

Also, as far as overall lap speed, F1 cars are much lighter (<650kgs vs 900kgs min), and have about 900+ bhp vs the 650-700 for last gen LMP1s and LMP900s, and 550+ for current LMP1s. However, as far as torque, any LMP1, even with a 3.4 V8, will eat an F1 car for breakfast on the torque charts.

If Mike is correct in that LMPs and F1 cars have similar downforce figures, the only things that are keeping F1 cars as going faster are top end power and lighter weight. Though in low speed corners, I'd still give the LMP1s a mechanical grip advantage (wider tires) and perhaps a slight accelleration advantage (loads more torque, especially the diesels).

I think that this is a pretty solid tech debate topic, and I know that F1 vs sports cars has been a great topic of technical discussion. I wonder if the mods might feel it better if the technical end of this debate might be even better served in the technology forums? As I said with grip, the more eyes who have and in depth knowlege on this subject, the better the discussion.

[kingkai]

Have been wondering about this myself for years how much would LMP1 differ from F1. That first video is nice speed comparing but it is with GT3. Same as comparing LMP1 with GT3... But then again it always amazes me at La Source that the overtaken GT2 nearly bump into the back of the same LMP car which overtook it in the braking zone but nearly gets hit by the GT2 when coming out of the corner (that is just before the LMP's power kick in)

[TF110]

Wish group C cars were left alone, then we would see serious speeds, push the envelope as far as you can I say! 900hp with 800kg would be great, especially with the aero properties those cars had, with modern tires!

[hcl123]

the title is wrong!...

Should not be Audi/Pug vs F1 car... but Audi/Pug "cars" vs F1 "moto4"

there is a HUGE HUGE difference... you put a F1 engine in a LMP1 car and lolz lolz probably even a "LMP2" will win clearly because those engines will not pass the 15k RPM... you put an actual unrestricted Diesel V12 on a F1 body(if it could made to fit) and most probably it would brake the chassis in half on a hard take off from standing...

that is the difference between 530Kg and 940Kg, and the difference from the most important parameter "torque" (NOT POWER)...

Ballast a F1 to 940Kg and most probably every "street" top supercar will win (Mclaren F1 and the Buggati veyron for sure).

[Joe Taylor]

I feel I'm once again feeding the troll, but...

Originally Posted by hcl123

there is a HUGE HUGE difference... you put a F1 engine in a LMP1 car and lolz lolz probably even a "LMP2" will win clearly because those engines will not pass the 15k RPM...

Those F1 engined prototypes of the early 1990s managed to be pretty quick didn't they? The F1 derived Judd has done pretty well for itself too hasn't it? (if I recall, the reason they bored it out to 5.5l was to decrease the revs it had to run at for longevity rather than anything related to lack of performance)

Ballast a F1 to 940Kg and most probably every "street" top supercar will win (Mclaren F1 and the Buggati veyron for sure).

I highly doubt that. bear in mind that F1 cars weigh the best part of 800kg when fuelled for the start of the race (approx 200litres of fuel at a maximum density of 775kg/m^3 on top of the minimum weight of 640kg) and performance is only a few seconds per lap slower.

[TF110]

Guy hasn't a clue what he's talking about. F1 cars make more downforce than what GT racers weigh. The carbon in F1 cars are strong enough to let their drivers walk away from flips at 250+kmh and crashes into walls that'd break a street car. F1 is different from Prototypes. Different series, different purposes.

[gttouring]

I still am waiting For an overlay.

[Tim the Grey]

I've not seen F1 at Spa, but LMP1s in practice are just scary through there. The sheer commitment of works LMP drivers into Eau Rouge, through to Raidillon, is very impressive.


I have said it before. Stand at the bottom by the bridge (Which IS Eau Rouge), and Eau Ruge/Raidillon is like the North Face of the Eiger!