Porsche in LMP1!?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TWK

Meanwhile, it has been reliably reported (IMO, anyway) that Porsche's nascent LMP project has been cancelled.

The background to this story is that interest in prototypes on the part of manufacturers is generally wanning. I expect stronger GT(2) fields going forward.

OK, I'm pricking up my ears at the 'reliably reported' bit - humour me as I probably missed it - where was that reported?

[TRuss]

I've read that somewhere recently as well. I have no idea where though. I've clicked so many links lately.

The GT2 thing makes a lot of sense. That trend is obvious even now. If GTE ends up allowing hybrids then I can easily see this class as a manufacturers dream. A chance to showoff what you actually sell. Fans love that stuff too. There's a reason why the original Trans Am cars were and still are so popular. But there has to some appeal of overall wins to even the GT2 manufacturers. Maybe not though. Is it more important to beat your rivals even if in a lower class. Or is it more important to win overall against a single arch rival?

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

OK, I'm pricking up my ears at the 'reliably reported' bit - humour me as I probably missed it - where was that reported?

My apologies for using the word "reported," (thus the "IMO" in my post). It was "reported" to ears in LMS media rooms at Algarve and Hungary this summer, and passed on to me. My correspondents are "reliable" in my opinion.

Public announcement? No. Press release? No.

It's one of those things you can chose to believe. Or not.

[6157]

Manufacturer interest in prototypes waning and ACO continues to push forward ridiculous rules for a dying class.

That's a train I'd want to hitch my wagon to.

Originally Posted by TWK

My apologies for using the word "reported," (thus the "IMO" in my post). It was "reported" to ears in LMS media rooms at Algarve and Hungary this summer, and passed on to me. My correspondents are "reliable" in my opinion.

3% is reliable, right?

[JAG]

GT2 is in the same position Super Touring and the WRC were in the mid-90's.

With 458's and McLaren's on the horizon some of the smaller marquis could be squeezed out, particularly if customer cars are plentiful. With so many cars the GTE-Pro/Am format comes into it's own.

As for prototype support, after a decade of VAG dominance there are now three manufacturer P1 programs and the best customer chassis/engine options since the 956/962 were front runners.

[6157]

Originally Posted by JAG

GT2 is in the same position Super Touring and the WRC were in the mid-90's.

With 458's and McLaren's on the horizon some of the smaller marquis could be squeezed out, particularly if customer cars are plentiful. With so many cars the GTE-Pro/Am format comes into it's own.

As for prototype support, after a decade of VAG dominance there are now three manufacturer P1 programs and the best customer chassis/engine options since the 956/962 were front runners.

3 could easily become 1.

VAG does not seem to have interest in staying if prototype rules don't support hybrids and Peugeot is always year to year, as far as I'm concerned. Once they solidify a dominance of LeMans, they'll have no motivation to keep the program.

If you drop prototypes, theoretically you're only losing one manufacturer, Peugeot. VAG will run Porsche and Audi in GT classes and so can Aston Martin, if they so choose, which I'm sure they would.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by 6157

3 could easily become 1.

Or not!





L.P.

[JAG]

Prototypes are Le Mans, that's not going to change.

For a decade Audi crushed a handful of privateers with the R8 but supported the ALMS and pumped money into the series.

These days the level of manufacturer competition is on another level, there are more plentiful, higher quality privateers but the focus has switched to another series.

There's plenty to go around but there needs to be patience for all the pieces to fall into place, what will work tomorrow not just today.

For all the talk of stability it seems some people just want to jump on the latest bandwagon whether it be P2 a few years back or GTE now.

The last thing the ALMS needs is follow the boom and bust of European production based racing, in fact GTE's best chance of long term survival is a healthy P1 field.

[6157]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Or not!





L.P.

Insightful.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by 6157

Insightful.

My opinion!




L.P.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by 6157

VAG does not seem to have interest in staying if prototype rules don't support hybrids and Peugeot is always year to year, as far as I'm concerned.

I am not sure that is true. Audi is/was not really keen on using a hybrid drivetrain. In fact, together with Aston Martin they asked the ACO to lower the minimum weight on non-hybrid LMP1 cars. Both believe weight saving to be more very for future road cars. In Paris Audi showed the quattro concept weighing just 1300 kg and Lamborghini the radical Sesto Elemento with a weight of only 999 kg.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TWK

My apologies for using the word "reported," (thus the "IMO" in my post). It was "reported" to ears in LMS media rooms at Algarve and Hungary this summer, and passed on to me. My correspondents are "reliable" in my opinion.

Public announcement? No. Press release? No.

It's one of those things you can chose to believe. Or not.

Well, I accept that, but it makes my point. 'Reliable' means a whole range of possibilities and with some members being very sensitive in here (far more so than ever before), it appears that we need to be clear as to what we're saying. I don;'t quite know why we have this situation here - because it's seriously boring a lot of members (and moderators), but that's where we've got to.....

[TRuss]

Prototypes may be LeMans but that can and has changed. Remember the mid 90s? Granted the McLaren F1 GTR was an exotic piece of machinery, but still a road car first and probably no more prototypical (relatively) than what we will see with the 458 or any others.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TRuss

Prototypes may be LeMans but that can and has changed. Remember the mid 90s? Granted the McLaren F1 GTR was an exotic piece of machinery, but still a road car first and probably no more prototypical (relatively) than what we will see with the 458 or any others.

Well, '94-'99 was unique years, and the "Road car" regulations was quickly bypassed with the extreme GT1's (911, CLR, GT-One and 390GT1).
Prototypes is what makes Le Mans, Le Mans. La Sarthe will always demand a special kind of cars, and to be the quickest the cars (under all regulations) will always look in that direction.

[TRuss]

I agree, just presenting an interesting piece of "GT relative" LeMans history.

And on a related note; Thinking about HORNDAWG's experimental 918 idea and 1994-99 regs, I can't help but also think about the original LMP EVO proposal and some kind of mixture of all three ideas. But then this seems too close to recreating GT1. Which wouldn't work unless you were to axe LMPs all together. In which case you end up with 1994-99 all over again. Basically a perfectly fruitless bit of thinking on my part.

But all of this seems to be getting a bit too far off course.

[Aysedasi]

Yes it is, but at least it's interesting.......

[TRuss]

I'm glad you think so because I have a little bit more. How cool would an experimental 918 vs. experimental Jaguar CX75 be?

I really think the 2014 ACO regs vs. 2013 F1 regs is what may play as the most critical deciding factor for VAG. I say VAG because I am not sure how much say Porsche and Audi actually have in all of this individually. Ever since the mention of 2014 I have viewed the 2011 regs as a stop gap measure to keep things on the up and up for the next few years while the ACO square away 2014. The FIA seems set on the GRE but with alot of freedom in recovering waste energy along with fuel flow restrictors and a "fixed budget." This does seem to be gathering the interest of several manufacturers. Obviously VAG included. So clearly the ACO is going to have to offer something more. The ACO should not only focus on freedom for waste energy recovery but continue to allow for a great variety engines and other powerplants and drivetrains. Energy recovery is great, but there should still be continued development in generating energy as well. If the ACO can realise this and provide the venue for this development to happen then maybe we can keep Audi and get Porsche back if they have two different enough approaches.

[Aysedasi]

Don't push your luck.........

(Only joking.... )

[JAG]

Experimental GT's are a world of hurt and expense.

Mercedes built three all new cars in the same number of years and would have needed a fourth to go up against the no compromise R8 prototype in 2000.

The pre-'97 GT1 field was wiped out despite thriving like GTE is today, all it takes is one manufacturer to start the ball rolling then it's only a matter of time before someone turns up with a no compromise 'prototype' and thats the end of GT racing.

Personally I'd prefare manufacturers like Audi to just put a roof on their P1 and leave GTE as is, for road based cars produced in plentiful numbers.

As for 2014 and beyond it looks like the ACO may throw things open and introduce an energy limit, leaving it upto manufacturers to choose their method of propulsion.

[TRuss]

I agree on all points JAG.

And that was a nice one Aysedasi. You actually had me going for a second.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

and with some members being very sensitive in here (far more so than ever before), it appears that we need to be clear as to what we're saying. I don;'t quite know why we have this situation here - because it's seriously boring a lot of members (and moderators), but that's where we've got to.....

I can understand your position here in being a moderator, but for the rest of us, that ignore function can come in handy. I haven't used it here yet, but have on a couple of other forums as it gets rid of the annoying, negative, sh-- stirrers, who seem to get their jollies from being unpleasant and disparaging towards other forum users.

[Aysedasi]

Yes, that's a good point - over the last few months in particular I've been very tempted to put a number of regulars here on 'ignore'. Well, things are moving on now and tolerance levels for the behaviour you describe are now exhausted. The bickering and sniping between members/factions now has to stop, else those who seem to enjoy doing it will be looking for another forum to do it on - without any further warnings.

[porman]

Off topic I know, but I just noticed your mentioning of Le Mans 1986-2010. You must have seen some remarkable action Aysedasi. A photo thread would be delicious!

Back on course, since I missed many of the epic battles that you have witnessed at Le Mans, my delusional state prohibits me from giving up on a Porsche LMP. I can't tell you how excited I was in 05 at Laguna Seca when I was able to spend some time next to the RS Spyder in its first appearance. Before then I had pretty much given up, having known about the prior aborted proto with only a V-10 to show for it. I just wish we had more top-flight teams in prototypes and that the racing was more appealing to manufacturers at the LMP level.

I fear that the days of having a pleasant surprise from Porsche Motorsports have been neutered by big brother. Flip a coin is what I say! That's about the chance of there being a P-proto in the not too distant future.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by porman

Off topic I know, but I just noticed your mentioning of Le Mans 1986-2010. You must have seen some remarkable action Aysedasi. A photo thread would be delicious!

You can always 'pay me a visit' - and then you can see some of the photos and read about them too!

[porman]

I will get to Le Mans one day. Been dreaming about it since I was a child. The irony is that my wife is French, and I have been just about everywhere in France.

I miss Norbert and his clever rule interpretations.