Renault back as a full works team?

[JeremySmith]

The latest mud slinging is way over the top from Red Bull and very destructive.. They have won eight championships with Renault and should be way more supportive..

[Paradise City]

The one thing that doesn't do anythin' is moanin'. Particularly if you're target is a French company who have alot of pride. Renault won't take well to being treated as another one of DM's employees. What works is action, governed by sound judgement. DM is at a crossroads now and has some tough decisions to make. That's either to knuckle down with Renault and try to lure in a non-F1 manufacturer, make an engine in-house (ok, unlikely to happen) or quit.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

The latest mud slinging is way over the top from Red Bull and very destructive.. They have won eight championships with Renault and should be way more supportive..

What might the game plan be? To annoy Renault so much that they leave, and have to pay RBR & STR some kind of compensation for breaking their contracts.. money that could be used to pay for customer Ferrari powerplants?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

What might the game plan be? To annoy Renault so much that they leave, and have to pay RBR & STR some kind of compensation for breaking their contracts.. money that could be used to pay for customer Ferrari powerplants?

'

That would be the strategic approach GTR, however, I think RBR have just reached the point where their frustrations at paying a supplier $100 million a year to produce a boat anchor that is ruining an investment of hundreds of millions of dollars has got the better of them!

Let's face it the Renault PU has just been an unmitigated disaster!

Too little up front investment, too little investment in putting it right!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

'

That would be the strategic approach GTR, however, I think RBR have just reached the point where their frustrations at paying a supplier $100 million a year to produce a boat anchor that is ruining an investment of hundreds of millions of dollars has got the better of them!

Let's face it the Renault PU has just been an unmitigated disaster!

Too little up front investment, too little investment in putting it right!

That is how I see it, RB are in F1 for a reason, to promote the product they sell and if that promotion is compromised they are both losing money and hurting their image and they won't tolerate that. Those that say that the RB reaction is all sour grapes are not the ones fronting the money, perhaps if their money was invested and the investment began to go south they might have a similar reaction to RB. The history of Renault's motors has always been that they are in the lower end of the power/reliability spectrum in F1 though they were the turbo pioneers back in the day when they read the rule book and used it to their advantage. It is a business and Renault have undertaken to deliver a product that is firstly unreliable and secondly down on power. If the chassis is not up to scratch then that is RB's problem. I think that Renault have been fortunate to have RB produce a series of race cars that have masked the power deficiencies they have always had and everyone knew it but now the chassis is marginal then they can't get away with what they have been able to in the past. if I were in Renault's shoes I would be very reluctant to re-enter as a full team as that would require them to perform in their own name and if it failed to face up to their own problems and I don't see that happening in the short term.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Casper

That is how I see it, RB are in F1 for a reason, to promote the product they sell and if that promotion is compromised they are both losing money and hurting their image and they won't tolerate that. Those that say that the RB reaction is all sour grapes are not the ones fronting the money, perhaps if their money was invested and the investment began to go south they might have a similar reaction to RB. The history of Renault's motors has always been that they are in the lower end of the power/reliability spectrum in F1 though they were the turbo pioneers back in the day when they read the rule book and used it to their advantage. It is a business and Renault have undertaken to deliver a product that is firstly unreliable and secondly down on power. If the chassis is not up to scratch then that is RB's problem. I think that Renault have been fortunate to have RB produce a series of race cars that have masked the power deficiencies they have always had and everyone knew it but now the chassis is marginal then they can't get away with what they have been able to in the past. if I were in Renault's shoes I would be very reluctant to re-enter as a full team as that would require them to perform in their own name and if it failed to face up to their own problems and I don't see that happening in the short term.

It is sour grapes. A lull of a few years is an unremarkable part of being a sporting titan. Genuinely robust organisations apprehend this. It ain't a big deal and if DM doesn't like that; he should've thought of it before hand. Red Bull need Renault more than Renault needs Red Bull. DM needs to understand that cold reality and he only harms himself by taking shots at such a prideful organisation.

And Red Bull team is a Red Bull vanity project. Having a team isn't an optimum promotional strategy. Vanity accounts for a drinks mogul buying a team outright.

[chillibowl]

i can pretty much guarantee that if i was losing hundreds of millions i would be significantly louder than RB are being.

no responsibly run company should take a situation like this on the chin imo.

[GTRMagic]

Perhaps it is sour grapes, but the Renault 2015 F1 engine is the worst of the 4 available (Mercedes '15, Ferrari '15, Ferrari '14 & Renault '15), and is simply not reliable.

Losing track time because the team is limiting time on the engine in case it blows up and they cop another penalty doesnt do much for tuning what doesnt seem to be a particularly fantastic Red Bull chassis either...

If the Renault was at least reliable, the stress may not be so loud!

By way of contrast, Mr Perez's Benz reportedly went almost 5,000km before they changed it out this weekend in Austria, without a failure!

If Renault make it through a race meeting without losing an engine its a cause for joy.

Red Bull Ferrari please...

[P38 in workshop]

Meanwhile,McLaren are doing worse and quietly going about their business.Perhaps because they are a racing organisation rather than the promotional arm of another business.

Red Bull are subject to the same regulations as all the other teams and are in the position they currently occupy because of decisions they made earlier.Their options range from walking away to cooperating with their engine supplier to achieve the greatest level of success while the current token system is in existence.With all the strategists at their disposal I would expect them to evaluate all possibilities-and take into account the fact that most of us despise whingers.

[chillibowl]

no doubt Mclaren are fighting tooth and nail and no doubt conversations are heated behind closed doors...which is all well and good, but for me i think im a little sad they show so little of that fight, that anger, that frustration on track.

in public they seem resigned to their fate which makes RB's loudness, by comparison, sound like a fighting spirit imo.

to each their own of course

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

no doubt Mclaren are fighting tooth and nail and no doubt conversations are heated behind closed doors...which is all well and good, but for me i think im a little sad they show so little of that fight, that anger, that frustration on track.

in public they seem resigned to their fate which makes RB's loudness, by comparison, sound like a fighting spirit imo.

to each their own of course

To me RB's current attitude sounds like the pathetic whinging of spoilt brats and suggests that Red Bull's sporting ethos that they so love to promote is actually a complete work of fiction. I view them as a bunch pf hipocrytes and a completely worthless brand, not because they are not winning but because of the way they are approaching one of those lean times which is part of the deal in sport.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i can pretty much guarantee that if i was losing hundreds of millions i would be significantly louder than RB are being.

no responsibly run company should take a situation like this on the chin imo.

Who says he's losing hundreds of millions? That's not necessarily so. That's in fact investment that could be used smartly to prepare for the next cycle of victories in a year or so or whatever time frame is the responsible projection in light of resources that is at their command.

You'd swear listenin' to DM that RBR's last WC was ten years ago or something. The guy needs to start playin' it smarter than doing his temper tantrum self harm thing.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I do think it's somewhat disingenuous of RBR to complain like they have about Renault. It's not as if Mateschitz went into F1 blind fold. We all know teams, drivers and engine manufacturers have their ups and downs as do teams, sports men and women in other sports. In the case of F1, they should look to McLaren. That was a bold move to go from Mercedes to Honda but there's no whining from them. They're knuckling down trying to get it right.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I do think it's somewhat disingenuous of RBR to complain like they have about Renault. It's not as if Mateschitz went into F1 blind fold. We all know teams, drivers and engine manufacturers have their ups and downs as do teams, sports men and women in other sports. In the case of F1, they should look to McLaren. That was a bold move to go from Mercedes to Honda but there's no whining from them. They're knuckling down trying to get it right.

Yes....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I do think it's somewhat disingenuous of RBR to complain like they have about Renault. It's not as if Mateschitz went into F1 blind fold. We all know teams, drivers and engine manufacturers have their ups and downs as do teams, sports men and women in other sports. In the case of F1, they should look to McLaren. That was a bold move to go from Mercedes to Honda but there's no whining from them. They're knuckling down trying to get it right.

Mateschitz is paying Renault in excess of a $200M a year, has brought them 4 world championships with below par engines, has already spent a year trying to be understanding, and is protecting a billion dollar investment.
Renault has not yet produced a really competitive engine despite the results they have been given by RBR, I think Mateschitz has every right to throw his toys at Renault for their complete lack of commitment!
Renault are just a very expensive liability!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by wnut

Mateschitz is paying Renault in excess of a $200M a year, has brought them 4 world championships with below par engines, has already spent a year trying to be understanding, and is protecting a billion dollar investment.
Renault has not yet produced a really competitive engine despite the results they have been given by RBR, I think Mateschitz has every right to throw his toys at Renault for their complete lack of commitment!
Renault are just a very expensive liability!

There's truth to the idea that the Renault haven't been as committed of course. The Red Bull-Newey razz mataz has eclipsed Renault's involvement in the publicity stakes and Renault are thus unhappy and disinclined to invest the resources that are really required for a sustainable first class winning engine. But this isn't about morality; it's about politics and Renault has all the cards and holds RBR over a barrel. DM rebuking Renault is only going to do one thing; irritate Renault to no real advantage. He looks foolish too as it hasn't been that long since he's bagged his championships. Bet he's beggin' Newey to come back at this very moment.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Perhaps it is sour grapes, but the Renault 2015 F1 engine is the worst of the 4 available (Mercedes '15, Ferrari '15, Ferrari '14 & Renault '15), and is simply not reliable.

Losing track time because the team is limiting time on the engine in case it blows up and they cop another penalty doesnt do much for tuning what doesnt seem to be a particularly fantastic Red Bull chassis either...

If the Renault was at least reliable, the stress may not be so loud!

By way of contrast, Mr Perez's Benz reportedly went almost 5,000km before they changed it out this weekend in Austria, without a failure!

If Renault make it through a race meeting without losing an engine its a cause for joy.

Red Bull Ferrari please...

Renault contracted to deliver a competitive engine in what is a commercial and business partnership between the two. They are pouring money into their end of the deal that is now being handicapped by their partner's failure to deliver what they contracted to do. If anyone thinks that the aggrieved partner should shut up and accept that situation then so be it but RB is not going to as it is costing them money and damaging their image. NEWSFLASH!! This is not a sport this is a commercial operation run for commercial reasons and if the end goal is not being met they are in effect losing money even if it is the same spend as if they were winning as the outcome is not what they want.

I saw some comment the other day (Autosport??) that RB will not use customer engines as they are not in F1 to use a motor that is down on HP and thus impossible to win with while the factory cars are still on the track. I think that says it all about how they go about competing in F1, they might enjoy it but in the end it is a business above everything. If they act like petulant children in some eyes I don't think they care, they just want a result and that means winning.

[Paradise City]

RBR needs to have delegations of executives sent to the HQs of all the world's car manufacturers in an effort to win a works deal - yeah, even Honda.

As for his dealings with Renault. He needs to do what he has to do with Renault - but he needs to keep it behind closed doors.

Renault's involvement in F1 is questionable and they are mulling over buying a team even if they do stick around. Mounting public attacks on proud Renault executives is a losing proposition and will push Renault further away from Red Bull.

Why would Renault go that extra mile for a team that has lost the Newey magic , is now having trouble winning and when they do win finds that their own brand is overshadowed by the glitzy Red Bull brand? No reason other than lukewarm reasons.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Mateschitz is paying Renault in excess of a $200M a year, has brought them 4 world championships with below par engines, has already spent a year trying to be understanding, and is protecting a billion dollar investment.
Renault has not yet produced a really competitive engine despite the results they have been given by RBR, I think Mateschitz has every right to throw his toys at Renault for their complete lack of commitment!
Renault are just a very expensive liability!

4 successive world championships no less, with below par engines? That takes some doing.

As I said drivers and engine manufacturers have their ups and downs and Mateschitz must have been fully aware of this before he got into F1. I'm sure shifting a few more cans of Red Bull will cover his $200m. Those blue cans certainly helped pay for Baumgartner's jump.

The fact Mateschitz is threatening to quit F1 over this, sounds to me like this has more to do with his ego than anything else.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

4 successive world championships no less, with below par engines? That takes some doing.

As I said drivers and engine manufacturers have their ups and downs and Mateschitz must have been fully aware of this before he got into F1. I'm sure shifting a few more cans of Red Bull will cover his $200m. Those blue cans certainly helped pay for Baumgartner's jump.

The fact Mateschitz is threatening to quit F1 over this, sounds to me like this has more to do with his ego than anything else.

In fairness RBR bought into F1 put their heads down and worked their socks off with no complaints about results for years.

This is about Renault's lack of performance!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

In fairness RBR bought into F1 put their heads down and worked their socks off with no complaints about results for years.

This is about Renault's lack of performance!

Granted but now things aren't going the way they would like. It's not as if this sort of thing, like Renault's lack of performance, has never happened before in motorsport. Look at what McLaren and Honda are having to deal with, yet they're getting on with it.

How long did Mateschitz, think RBR would remain the team to beat, forever? It strikes me there is a lack of realism on RBR's part. Maybe they should quit F1.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Granted but now things aren't going the way they would like. It's not as if this sort of thing, like Renault's lack of performance, has never happened before in motorsport. Look at what McLaren and Honda are having to deal with, yet they're getting on with it.

How long did Mateschitz, think RBR would remain the team to beat, forever? It strikes me there is a lack of realism on RBR's part. Maybe they should quit F1.

To RBR it is not sport it is a business decision tool used to promote the company. To you and me traditionally it is a sport but to them it is a business. They went in feet first when BE offered them appearance money in return for a contracted period of involvement end were the first to sign up because there was money involved and it was guaranteed. I actually do not agree with all that RB have said or done but I can understand their position, Renault have not delivered on their contract. Renault have a poor history of using F1, arriving and leaving as it suits them and when things have not gone well for them. I cannot think of one team that is in F1 for the sport, there are those who started that way but none remain, the Ferraris, Williams & McLarens of this world are in this for business reasons and what they can get out of it which is a far cry from where they started from and they are all responsible for the mess F1 is in.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

no doubt Mclaren are fighting tooth and nail and no doubt conversations are heated behind closed doors...which is all well and good, but for me i think im a little sad they show so little of that fight, that anger, that frustration on track.

in public they seem resigned to their fate which makes RB's loudness, by comparison, sound like a fighting spirit imo.

to each their own of course

It is slightly different for McLaren, with Honda allegedly underwriting at least part of the team's operating budget for 2015. Can't smack your major sponsor in the mouth now can you

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Granted but now things aren't going the way they would like. It's not as if this sort of thing, like Renault's lack of performance, has never happened before in motorsport. Look at what McLaren and Honda are having to deal with, yet they're getting on with it.

How long did Mateschitz, think RBR would remain the team to beat, forever? It strikes me there is a lack of realism on RBR's part. Maybe they should quit F1.

This is the second year of a poor Renault engine. How long do you wait until you begin screaming? Renault keep saying they are putting more resources into the project then Mr Ricciardo goes out and blows up another engine. Or Mr Kyvat. Or Mr Sainz. Or Mr Verstappen.

A 5,000km-capable Benz, even in Force India B-spec would be better than this.

That RBR has fallen to 4th in the constructors title has financial implications for them. We dont know the maths, but it would be interesting to know how much Red Bull actually has to fund the team, given their take from the Bernie Tax, and the constructor championship payments. And money from Infiniti and others. If the constructor money falls off, Red Bull will have to make up the gap themselves...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

To RBR it is not sport it is a business decision tool used to promote the company. To you and me traditionally it is a sport but to them it is a business. They went in feet first when BE offered them appearance money in return for a contracted period of involvement end were the first to sign up because there was money involved and it was guaranteed. I actually do not agree with all that RB have said or done but I can understand their position, Renault have not delivered on their contract. Renault have a poor history of using F1, arriving and leaving as it suits them and when things have not gone well for them. I cannot think of one team that is in F1 for the sport, there are those who started that way but none remain, the Ferraris, Williams & McLarens of this world are in this for business reasons and what they can get out of it which is a far cry from where they started from and they are all responsible for the mess F1 is in.

Well if FI for Red Bull is purely a business decision tool used to promote the company and not a sport, then ruling out or ignoring the sporting aspect, I think is a mistake on their part, after all the team is called Red Bull Racing. I very much doubt Ferrari, Williams & McLaren have completely ignored the sporting aspect.

However, if it's going to be seen purely as a business, it also has to be seen a high tech business, as that's the nature of F1 and with anything high tech, it's tricky and not everyone's going to get it right everytime.

Is Renault's history that chequered? They started in F1 1977 and first quit as a constructor at the end of 1985 but continued supplying engines to other teams, something they had done since '83. Apart from a hiatus, 1986 -'89 and another from 1997 - 2000, a total of six years, they've been around for sometime.