Where is the limit and who decides?

[Adam43]

I find the situation with Maserati and its participation in the FIA GT quite interesting (That specific case is discussed here).

I understand the problem that one manufacturer could destroy the championship, but on the other hand the car is fantastic and I would love to see it race.

It is a difficult balancing act. What if oen of the present cars had become dominant, would that be banned, would that change what was defined as factory support?

The last case that we have and is oft cited is with GT1. When did this become too much? When the McLaren started racing? When the first Porsche GT1 did? When Mercedes came in? Or at Le Mans when Toyota did? I'm being vague here (with times, rules and championships), but you see what I mean.

All of them caused the bubble to burst. However if you'd have stopped the bubble in the first place then we would have missed out on a collection of fantastic race cars.

Are they stopping the final collapse by banning the Mazza, or preventing a new dawn?

[JAG]

The 911 GT1 was the start of the end for GT1. It prevented Ferrari entering the F50, just as the Maserati would have stopped Aston Martin entering.

Road cars should race in GT, not race cars homologated for the road.

Theres no excuse for the Masearti now as the LMP1 regs, and LMGTP prior to that, allow closed top prototypes. Why build a 'prototype' and enter it in a production class.


The FIA and ACO have never had problems with the Viper or Vette dominating as they are genuine road cars.

[Adam43]

The Mazza is closer to a GTS car than a prototype. Although that is probably more for the other thread.

What is a road car? The homologation is interesting too, how many should be built to class it as a road car? My open ended question is where is the limit*? Set it too low and we don't grab the best cars, if it is set high does it always destroy the series.

I also suspect we'd never see a 917 again. Is that good or bad? I'm not saying either way (I don't know), but you can see the regret from this situation (?).

*when I say limit I mean the limit for any of the rules, not just numbers built.

[JAG]

The 'best' cars as you describe them, in the GT1 era, were always prototypes, i.e. the CLK-GTR, 911 GT1 etc. The rules at the time just forced them into GT1. The Bentley would have been forced into GT1 in the 90s, but since then the rules have accomodated coupe prototypes.

And you would see a 917 again, in LMP1.

The Maserati has been designed as a racer first, with bodywork that has been designed for racing rather than road use. Therefore it would have a huge performance advantage over a genuine road car based GTS car.

[Cadete]

I'm with JAG on this one, the problem (to me) of the Maserati is not that it would dominate, is that it is not in accordance to the spirit of the rules.

If a team dominates with all respect to the rules (spirit and written), all the kudos to them. If a manufacturer starts putting prototypes that follow the GTS rules to beat road-going GTS cars (what the class is supposed to be) it doesn't make them look good in my eyes.

[Adam43]

This I all agree with.

I'm not really talking about the Mazza exactly, more the situation. Firstly where is the limit of a road car first, race car second? Its based on a road car. Are all the other cars around close enough to the road car, where all of them road first?

Secondly, are we missing out by not having one-off cars that are road legal. A bit more prototype (if that is what you want to call them - although I wouldn't say the Mazza is near to being a prototype). What if we could sustain a race series that has cars more like the CLK-GTR, 911 GT1, GT-One? Are series like this just impossible to sustain? What makes it boom and bust in this respect?

[JAG]

Cars like the GT-ONE can race in the LMES in the LMP1 class. They can be sustained, because right from the start everyone is racing to the same rules. You can build a car as extreme as the regs allow.

In GT however, most manufactuer would race a genuine road car like a 550 or DB9. When a MC12 type car arrives it will obsolete the genuine road cars. So you end up with manufactuers building more extreme 'road cars' year on year.

Just look how the CLK-GTR morphed into the CLR over a 3 year period. Same as Porsche going from the 911 GT2 EVO to the 911 GT 98.

Once homologation specials are allowed in, you cannot put the brakes on further development. As teams gradually move further and further from the road cars routes, new cars need to be built every year, which is very expensive, until you end up with a full prototype like the GT-ONE.

In LMP1 Audi built the R8 in 2000, to the letter of the regs, and simply refined it over the years.

[Adam43]

Yes.

Is there room for actual road cars that are taken further? A car like the MC12 aren't LMP1, they would be hopeless there. Is it possible to have a race series for these kinds of car.

I would love to see a series of these race, what I am try to explore is whether it is possible. I know what we have and had, so it is totally hypothetical.

Is what FIA GT is now the only way to achieve a series with a future. Is it immune to the problems of the past? What if someone spent a fortune developing a car (that was a road car), surely there is still a chance to go too far... Take the FIA GT's championship has Corvette in GTS gone too far (again it is an interesting other thread here, for when these a merged rules-wise).

Anyway. Say you want to set up an extreme GT series (not prototype) how can you do it without the problems we see?

[JAG]

The MC12 is a car that has been carefully designed to have a major performance advantage, yet sneek in under the radar as a 'road car'. Unfortunately for Maserati the FIA/ACO have seen it for what it is, a car that is not in the spirit of the regs.

If the MC12, and cars like it, could capped as they are it would been fine. Unfortunately they cannot, so each year the manufactuers will bring out more extreme 'road cars' until 3 years down the line Maseratis 'MC15' looks more like a Toyota GT-ONE.

Why even blur the classes. GTS is for production cars made as road cars first and foremost, while in LMP1 Maserati etc. can forget the road car constraints and build the ultimate racer the regs will allow.

[Adam43]

While not in the spirit of a road car, I don't think the Mazza is anywhere near a prototype. And all this about the MC12 goes without saying really, we know why it isn't allowed and generally I agree. It just got me thinking about the fuzzyness of the rules that chose which cars are race or road. I'm not trying to blur the classes. Although I am unsure how you define road to race or race to road.

What we do have it an indication that at least one manufacturer would like to build a more extreme GT car. If there were more how would you go about having such a series?

Do you just have a governing body that chooses each car on a car by car basis? (perhaps seeming to have a different position each week )
Or perhaps a maximum cost per car and it has to go to privateers? How effective is this?
Or a minimum have to be made, sold, raced?
Or a set of technical regs that keep performance through chequebook in check (one rule being road legal)?

In an ideal world I'd like road legal to be the only rule! I realise this is practically impossible, but I'd like to see how close we can get.

[JAG]

The MC12 is not a prototype, but a couple of years down the line its succesor certainly will be. And thats the problem. Were do you stop. If an MC12 is allowed, whats stopping a 'road' version of the Bentley entering GTS.

For every Maserati type car you allow in, you will lose an Aston Marin or Corvette.

The MC12 never conformed to ACO regs from the start.

[MorganFan]

The FIA/ACO would be on a slippery slope if they accepted the Maserati into the GTS category. That class should (IMHO )be for "proper" road-going cars that are designed primarily for day-to-day road use, that have sold an acceptable number of road-going variants, and that have then been homologated for racing use, either as a GT or GTS.

If cars like the Maserati end up in GTS, you can imagine it's an ever decreasing circle of oneupmanship, 'till you end up with somethings like the Bentley Speed Eight as a GTS!!

Maybe there needs to be a debate amongst the appropriate authorities (FIA/ACO et al) as to whether they want to see the top level of sportscar racing represented by prototypes as they currently exist, or quasi road-going cars, i.e. switch back to the days of GT1; from a manufacturers perspective I can imagine there is more to be argued for having the top-level of racing represented by cars that are superficially similar to the cars offered for sale by those manufacturers.

After all, I sure I would be more tempted to buy a Porsche/Bentley/../Skoda(!!)/etc if I knew that car had just won LeMans, rather than buying an Audi A6 or similar just because they had constructed a prototype that was dominant!!

That's why I think F1 is a poor marketing tool for major manufacturers these days, the cars are a million miles removed from anything that the motoring public can buy - for example I'm sure Ford could benefit more from having a modern equivalent to the GT40 winning Le Mans, rather than struggling to get a Jaguar F1 car to even finish a GP!!

Well, that's my five pounds worth, whaddya think?

[Adam43]

Interesing stuff. I was trying to avoid the Mazza debate, which is happening elsewhere. I guess that was difficult and are we any nearer where we should draw the line and whether very fast road cars can ever race? Mayb it is an impossible question and I wasn't helping

MorganFan, your point about racing cars that can sell is interesting. That is clearly more what Morgan are trying to do. However for some manufactures (high volume) the situation is different. There principle market isn't cars that can win classes at Le Mans. Maybe that is why Audi went full prototype?

[BSchneiderFan]

The Saleen S7-R competes in GTS, and is hardly designed for "day-to-day road use". I'm not sure I see the difference between the Saleen and the Maserati, except that FIAT SpA has more money than Steve Saleen. But I've always believed that the FIA and the ACO must set rules, and if a manufacturer builds a car which conforms to them it must be allowed to race. Bleating about "the spirit of the rules" is far too subjective.

[RM40]

The Saleen was a road car long before a race car. Sure, maybe their were more race cars built at first, but that was due to a lack of exposure for the road car. How is it not designed for "day-to-day road use"?

[SALEEN S7R]

Come on RM40 - anyone can see that the Saleen S7R was designed with one thing in mind. Racing, just look at the lines of the car, and the fact its mid engined. The car is a purpose built race car, but its been allowed to race because its met the homlogation rules, at last. Oh and because the Saleen factory dosent have the recources to beat a more "true" GTS car like the Corvette, but then the Corvettes have more money piled into them therefore making up the differnce to the Saleen and then some. If say Ferrari had entered the Saleen S7R I think we would see the same problems with the FIA/ACO as we are now with the MC12.

[RM40]

Lots of cars look race-y. The McLaren F1 was never thought to go into racing at first, and it looked like a race car right from the start. If a car looks fast, that is good enough for those rich Californians.

[Cynic]

I'm getting deja-vu here. Just substitute BMW M3 GTR for MC-12.........

The problem IMO is that the FIA's view is that the car is "outside the spirit of the rules", and that's a very subjective statement. How do you define that? From what I've seen of the Maserati, you certainly couldn't drive it down to the supermarket, but then I wouldn't say it was an out and out racer either. Ditto for the Saleen. On the other hand I did support the ACO's view on the Beemers......
Unless someone can come up with a better set of regs / stipulations, I think we just have to live the decision for now.

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Come on RM40 - anyone can see that the Saleen S7R was designed with one thing in mind. Racing, just look at the lines of the car, and the fact its mid engined. The car is a purpose built race car, but its been allowed to race because its met the homlogation rules, at last.

I don't think the Saleen is " purpose built race car". It is more a sport road car using as much as possible racing solutions usable within an acceptable cost. Is it fully carbone kevlar fibers ?

Le MC12 is the opposite. It is built as a race car, fully using race solution (except when not legal)and the final cost doesn't matter.
this is alos one of the FIA/ ACO reasons: definitibely too expensive.

If you are rich you can purchase a Saleen, a vette, an Aston martin, a 550, a viper, a TVR or a lambo, but also a Jaguar XK8 or a Maserati 3500.

To purchase a LC12 you need to be "over-rich" !
And there is such a difference between the LC12 and the above cars that taking the LC12 wil make immediately oldfashioned all those cars, stopping immediately any development.

I prefer to have 550, AM, vettes and lambo altogether than LC12 alone!

[JAG]

The MC12 was not homologated for ACO races as it did not meet the technical regs, full stop.

The FIA are on shakey ground ruling out a car as it is 'not in the spiret of the rules', even if the decision is ultimately right.

[Bramzel]

I don't think the Saleen is a purpose built race car either. Even though (just like the Lister) there are probably more race-cars then there are roadcars, it was still designed to be a supercar for the road, not for the track. And that's what all cars are, except for the Maserati wich was designed just for the track. The roadcar is built out of the racecar, where at the other cars it's the other way around. And that's what bothering me, and probably also a lot of other people.

[WidespredPaddok]

Where is the limit?

To where as many car manufacturers as possible can agree to modify their road-going GTs.

Who decides?

The car manufacturers.

It was nonsense like the MC12 that destroyed GT1 in the 90's. Yeah, like someone pointed out we would have missed out on some awesome cars if the ACO and FIA hadn't been shortsighted and incompetent enough to encourage the McLaren and subsequently the Porsche, Mercedes, and Toyota. But maybe we would have enjoyed well-regulated GT racing in these 5 years since GT1 collapsed if the FIA had dealt with the Porsche GT1 in 1996 the way it dealt with the Maserati in 2004--i.e. saying, "we don't care how much you spent, the other manufacturers do not want this particular car in our series. Come back with a fair competitor."

[BSchneiderFan]

Are there in fact any road-going Lister Storms? If not, this entire argument would seem to be nonsense on stilts.

[SALEEN S7R]

I agree BSchneider fan, there are no Lister Storm road going cars. The Lister was simply allowed to race in the FIA GT championship because the GT1 cars destroyed the series, and without the Storms back in 1999/2000 it would simply have been a Porsche GT2/Viper white wash.

The Maserati is not a "racing" car, it is a supercar. Just like the Saleen S7R and Pagani Zonda and the Lister Storm GT. Maserati have stated that there will be 50 road versions of this car available for purchase in the near future. How is this similar to say the Porsche GT1 or Mercedes GT1? Of which there were no road versions of, or if there were there was maybe 5 at most.

The Maserati wasnt allowed to race because of the technical regulations. Maserati have accepted that, and are going back to the drawing board and re designing their car and it should (hopefully) make its racing debut either late in 2005 or at the beginning of the 2006 season.

The only reason cars like the Saleen S7R hasnt dominated every series it has raced in is simply because the car hasnt been entered with full factory support for a full season. We know what the car is capable of after all (qualifying 2001) now if the factory entered FIA GT or LMES or ALMS the car would dominate IMO. Get the Maserati on track - racing!

[JAG]

The Maserati did comply with the FIA tech regs.

The FIA just believed the philosoghy behind the car was totally wrong for the series.