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Old 25 Jul 2009, 12:18 (Ref:2507607)   #26
bella
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i agree with the sentiment jay (and welcome back, by the way - good to see another 90's member of tenths return ). i can't help seeing the tethering system working more regularly in f3 and wonder why it can't be applied to f2 as well.
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Old 25 Jul 2009, 13:30 (Ref:2507660)   #27
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Spooky that teh only F1 driver to have made a statement regarding the Surtee's accident goes and get walloped on the head with debris too.....

Get well soon Felipe!
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Old 25 Jul 2009, 15:32 (Ref:2507775)   #28
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Spooky that teh only F1 driver to have made a statement regarding the Surtee's accident goes and get walloped on the head with debris too.....

Get well soon Felipe!
He's not the only one to have made a statement: Look at Alguersuari's helmet.
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Old 25 Jul 2009, 16:32 (Ref:2507833)   #29
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Agree with Jay that an investigation is warranted. It might well show that nothing could have been done to prevent the accident, but it also might not.
As for tethers, if they are made stronger, in a big accident the failure will just move to the next weakest point, like where it attaches to the tub or upright. And anyway, even a failed tether has already absorbed a huge amount of energy, which must be a good thing.
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Old 25 Jul 2009, 21:04 (Ref:2508003)   #30
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The main talking point seems to be about tethers. But can people not agree that especially in single-seater formulae, sometimes the wheels will detach in accidents? It is unfortunately inevitable. So what safety measures can be done to prevent a driver from coming across a detached wheel and hitting it? None, from what I can see. Even in Massa's accident today, Kimi points out the fact that to prevent debris from hitting a driver's helmet "You would need to make a rule for a bullet proof window in front of you to get rid of that issue." This statement also applies to Henry's crash essentially.
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Old 26 Jul 2009, 06:20 (Ref:2508164)   #31
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The main talking point seems to be about tethers. But can people not agree that especially in single-seater formulae, sometimes the wheels will detach in accidents? It is unfortunately inevitable. So what safety measures can be done to prevent a driver from coming across a detached wheel and hitting it? None, from what I can see. Even in Massa's accident today, Kimi points out the fact that to prevent debris from hitting a driver's helmet "You would need to make a rule for a bullet proof window in front of you to get rid of that issue." This statement also applies to Henry's crash essentially.
Even bullet proof glass(which I work with occassionally) has it's limitations.

Obviously in a single seater now it's the drivers head at risk for ballistic collisions. It would require a radical rethink of that part of the sport and my only concern is that you could compromise other areas of safety.

IMO focusing on driving standards and wheel tethers would probably be better and I'd focus more on the preventative part of debris flying all over the race track
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Old 26 Jul 2009, 17:17 (Ref:2508472)   #32
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I know this wouldn't have made any difference to Henry Surtees, but what about making the helmet visors of thicker material and having a proper means of locking them down? At least then the visor itself could withstand high speed impact with a small object.

A very inexpensive safety measure that could be put in place in a very short time, with minimal impact on the drivers and none on the cars.....
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Old 26 Jul 2009, 17:45 (Ref:2508501)   #33
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So what happens to bike racing? Do we enclose them too, just in case a one in a million chance accident occurs? No, that would be just as silly.

This is racing. It's known to be risky and dangerous. It is NOT comparible to commerical or private planes where safety is the most important factor. It is NOT comparible to road cars. Or trains. Or boats. They can make sure nothing breaks in the first place, and happily make things safer in the event that they do. With regards planes think Air Racing. It is dangerous. And the pilots accept it. Think F1 powerboats - REALLY dangerous.

There must not be a knee-jerk reaction because two one-in-a-million accidents occurred. It does not mean things are too dangerous or likely to happen again. Canopies, windsheilds etc are a completely daft solution to the problem. Harder testing for helmets, from projectiles and what not, including visor control (as in the above post) would be great, but that would be a level-headed reaction, and not in any way be silly. I don't think it requires much of an investigation.

But that wouldn't have helped Mr Surtees I don't think. The force of a 40kg wheel hitting him will almost certainly damaged his neck and spine, rather than his head, so helmet improvments won't have made any real difference.

And I am an engineer too. But it doesn't mean I want safety to be taken to levels so extreme that the competitors can get away with anything going wrong or silly risks (or, heaven forbid, taking each other out a la Senna/Prost).
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Old 26 Jul 2009, 18:08 (Ref:2508525)   #34
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As i pointed out before, motor racing is incredibly safe now, in fact in terms of deaths, very safe in comparison with other sports. 9 riders have been killed in Equestrian Eventing in the past year. Drivers accept there is some risk as do spectators. In Britain we have become obsessed with safety at all costs, which is why children can't do anything anymore. If you participate in potentially dangerous pastimes you accept the risk of death or serious injury. If that's not for you, you sit on the couch with a beer and watch it on TV.
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Old 26 Jul 2009, 18:15 (Ref:2508533)   #35
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I know this wouldn't have made any difference to Henry Surtees, but what about making the helmet visors of thicker material and having a proper means of locking them down? At least then the visor itself could withstand high speed impact with a small object.

A very inexpensive safety measure that could be put in place in a very short time, with minimal impact on the drivers and none on the cars.....
I don't think you quite understand the forces involved with these impacts. I race an open car and don't go at the speeds anywhere near F1 or F2 cars but even having a small stone hit you whilst doing around 100mph can have quite an impact. I've had it happen to me on a few occasions and it's quite a frightening experience plus a spring that weighs a kilo is not a small object.
If you start going for over the top visors or helmets you'd also need a small crane mounted on the car to support your head.
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Old 26 Jul 2009, 19:53 (Ref:2508596)   #36
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I don't think you quite understand the forces involved with these impacts. I race an open car and don't go at the speeds anywhere near F1 or F2 cars but even having a small stone hit you whilst doing around 100mph can have quite an impact. I've had it happen to me on a few occasions and it's quite a frightening experience plus a spring that weighs a kilo is not a small object.
If you start going for over the top visors or helmets you'd also need a small crane mounted on the car to support your head.
I won't pretend to be an expert in the field of material stresses and high impact failures, but with a background in engineering I believe I do have some understanding of the forces involved - I also ride motorcycles, and have had stones etc hit my visor, helmet and boots at relatively high speeds (130mph+ - not in the UK :-) )

At no point have I suggested going over the top with the visor or helmet, so there should be no need for a crane as you suggest......

All I was suggesting is that for minimal weight and cost the visors (which after all are the most vulnerable part of the helmet) could be made thicker, therefore offering a greater degree of protection to the drivers face for minimal penalty.

If you see the images of the damage sustained to Felipe's helmet you can see that the visor has apparently become detached on the side where the spring impacted it - perhaps beefing up the quick change system where it mounts onto the helmet would help too.
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Old 27 Jul 2009, 08:20 (Ref:2508900)   #37
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An object traveling at 150 MPH and weighing a kilo is still going to cause harm no matter how thick the Helmet/Visor material.This kind of impact would probably have rendered Phillipe unconscious with the extreme force involved.
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