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Old 26 Jan 2017, 14:08 (Ref:3705230)   #26
zefarelly
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From my observations there is a lot more 'wrong' with engines than capacity.

personal experience also backs up the fact that modernised engines produce much better torque @ power on capacity than over bored more traditional engines.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 16:52 (Ref:3705269)   #27
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PeterMorley should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPeterMorley should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
De Cadenet told me that when he was driving an original C-type at Monaco he was overtaken by the race winning car as he was coming out of a corner and it just disappeared off into the distance down the straight.
As he said, that has nothing to do with a driver's skill and just shows that the other car had far more power than original.

Assuming the race winning car was the right capacity (and there is no reason to doubt that) it shows that modern pistons, camshafts and many other components can make a huge difference, as do the fuel and oil.

The problem is how can you control such components, at least capacity is relatively simple to measure.

It would be easier if people were more realistic about what they are 'winning', why would anyone sensible spend quarter of a million on a Jag engine when all they 'win' is a worthless trophy and see their name on a results sheet.
Didn't they used to have historic races in the States where the trophies weren't necessarily given for track position? Maybe that wasn't such a daft idea...
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 17:20 (Ref:3705274)   #28
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I always supposed it was to add provenance and track record to the car thus 'enhancing its value'.
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 17:22 (Ref:3705275)   #29
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One of the monthlies has an article about the restoration of a Jag (not D) that raced at LM. Despite losing the 'works' D Type head over the years, when the engine was rebuilt it produced far more horse power than in period. That is what we can do nowadays.....
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 17:36 (Ref:3705279)   #30
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I always supposed it was to add provenance and track record to the car thus 'enhancing its value'.
That is the theory but a historic event is not a professional competitive contemporary event and as such does not really add any provenance.

Provenance should be about something's history.
Admittedly at some point in the future current events will be part of history but the events aren't of historic significance.

Showing that a car works should add something to the value but given the amounts being spent just on running some cars these days shouldn't be worth so much.

And as many people have discovered buying a race winning car does not guarantee success, chances are the driver had something to do with the result...
But there is more chance of buying success in historics than contemporary cars, which takes us back to the why bother...
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Old 26 Jan 2017, 19:37 (Ref:3705307)   #31
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midgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Because they're driven by successful men to whom winning is everything. They've won in life to be on big incomes, losing on the track doesn't enter their minds. They'll do what it takes.

And thank goodness for that. It gives those of us working in the industry an income, and the chance for spectators to enjoy some right royal racing and see some special cars.

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Old 27 Jan 2017, 08:50 (Ref:3705496)   #32
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whilst agreeing in part with MM, the point must be made that there are rules, and if people are successful within those rules then that is to be applauded, if the need to win takes cars outside those parameters then really what is the point? Ten years ago (or so..) I suggested on here that a line was drawn, sadly the development arms race has continued, probably even the rate of development has increased in some areas.
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 11:19 (Ref:3705531)   #33
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andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A few years ago, I believe that CSCC were encouraged by competitors to introduce a proper Appendix K series because enough people wanted to race on a proper level playing field and to have proper eligibility checks.

An eligibility Scrutineer was employed and checks were made. Some cars were excluded and low and behold entries dwindled because the discrepancies found were, "not me sir, it has no performance impact, sir, I'm not a cheat, sir, it's everyone else....."
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Old 27 Jan 2017, 13:06 (Ref:3705547)   #34
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Simon can I make clear that I was answering the question 'why do people cheat for a plastic trophy?' as opposed to condoning cheating. I then got a bit carried away!

I actually think that building cars outside the rules is cheating yourself most of all. Hollow victories are no victories to my mind.

In karting we have weighing and eligibility scrutineering after every heat and final for the top few plus others at random. I admit it's a lot easier on a kart, but equally we have a lot quicker turnaround. At the end of rhe day we have often had full engine strip downs as well - again a lot easier on a single cylinder 2-Stroke I admit! However what it does mean is that everyone is anal about minimum weights, restrictor sizes, correct exhaust gaskets etc. In the whole of my car racing "career" I was only subjected to a weighbridge twice. Tighten up on the basics plus a few random major strip downs and the problem will ease. You don't have to do it there, MSA scrutineers all have seals. I think TV detector vans work that way!



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Old 27 Jan 2017, 22:02 (Ref:3705667)   #35
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De Cadenet told me that when he was driving an original C-type at Monaco he was overtaken by the race winning car as he was coming out of a corner and it just disappeared off into the distance down the straight.
As he said, that has nothing to do with a driver's skill and just shows that the other car had far more power than original.


...
Just to add a note.
I was testing my car at Brands to get to the bottom of a misfire before a Spa meeting and the only day I could there was a track day, I overtook a Scooby going into clearways and much to the drivers amazement pulled away along the top straight.
The said driver came into the garage and said how can that "thing" beat me out of a corner as I have 440HP ! my mechanic said "well we have 500" so he walked away satisfied.
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Old 28 Jan 2017, 09:28 (Ref:3705745)   #36
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Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Am I missing something here?? Doesn't the MSA have clear guidance on the protesting of competitors? At the end of the day this is club racing. I hear the same bleating on year after year…If a competitor feels that someone is cheating then they can protest said competitor….I guess that most people are not bothered enough to want to put up or shut up!

N.
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Old 29 Jan 2017, 09:04 (Ref:3706790)   #37
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Often it's the protestor not the protested against that takes the flak. "Don't want to rock the boat old boy. Not the done thing. Let sleeping dogs lie, eh?"

Or maybe everyone's got a skeleton they don't want seen.



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Old 29 Jan 2017, 11:23 (Ref:3706844)   #38
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think mostly its a case of cant be bothered to carry it anywhere further than just moaning about so and so being that much faster.
That in itself is a great shame for Historics.If you know there is something not quite right,speak to the right person or scrutineer,you would be surprised at how many will actually listen.
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Old 29 Jan 2017, 22:08 (Ref:3707613)   #39
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
In my experience at a much lower level of competing it was the crap guys that used to cheat and the very top guys at big races.
Not many inbetween

You can never get rid of it, and I ahve read elswhere some truly astonishing cheats that ahve taken place in motorsport.

it would make an awesome book as all I can say.

But sadly, the legal side would be a nightmare.

I would bet there are countless series that have been totally dominated by illegal cars of some kind
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Old 30 Jan 2017, 05:26 (Ref:3707698)   #40
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Think youll find someone already wrote a book on cheating.Mainly in the US,roll cages that doubled as extra fuel tanks,cars the were scaled down in size.Very long lists.But youre right-someone should do one on Historics.Take a few years though.
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Old 30 Jan 2017, 15:40 (Ref:3707807)   #41
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I would bet there are countless series that have been totally dominated by illegal cars of some kind
One of the F1 designers said some years ago that if they built a car to all the rules it would not start...
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