Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Welcome to how racing politics works: "we don't prove our technologies and innovations, we change the rules to ban all the others that could possibly defeat us".

He's an employee of Chip Ganassi so his opinion was bought and paid for and therefore not unbiased.

I need no introduction to how racing politics works. I've seen so much of it over the years.

He may be an employee of Ganassi but he came up with the concept of the D-Wing; Ganassi didn't hand him a spec sheet.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Prototypes were built for Le Mans just in the past decade with a 675-kg limit. The LMP1 weight limit is 900 kg. I don't believe anyone questioned the safety of the LMP675's, so they can lop off 225 kg right now if the ACO wanted..

I believe that is the progressive and better way to go. I don't know if the block of the diesels can be made light enough to get down to this weight though...

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

The driver has no frontal reference point for the width of his rear wheelbase, and we see drivers getting tapped in the rear by moving over or not realizing a driver is there all the time, and it's going to be worse here (especially with Le Mans where there's no spotters).

If a driver found themselves completely confounded by the lack of a fender over there, the team could mount a little wire with a dingle ball on the end where the fender would be. It would cost them a little drag but if that's what it took to keep from knocking rear corners off the car, that would be a fair trade.

The classic impact between two cars is an open wheel driver hitting a front wing of the car behind with their rear tire, maybe breaking the wing on the other car and cutting their own tire. This design would eliminate that problem by not having front wings out there at the extreme corners to get hit, so this design would actually reduce those "getting tapped in the rear" incidents.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

If a driver found themselves completely confounded by the lack of a fender over there, the team could mount a little wire with a dingle ball on the end where the fender would be. It would cost them a little drag but if that's what it took to keep from knocking rear corners off the car, that would be a fair trade.

The classic impact between two cars is an open wheel driver hitting a front wing of the car behind with their rear tire, maybe breaking the wing on the other car and cutting their own tire. This design would eliminate that problem by not having front wings out there at the extreme corners to get hit, so this design would actually reduce those "getting tapped in the rear" incidents.

It also eliminates the car behind riding up over the rear tyre of the car infront and becoming airborne, something that's led to some very scary accidents with open wheel cars.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I believe that is the progressive and better way to go. I don't know if the block of the diesels can be made light enough to get down to this weight though...

You can make them a lot lighter by making an aluminum block but then that has no relevance to road car design because an aluminum block can't meet EU and EPA emissions targets.

The smallest diesel engine my company makes is a 3.3-liter and its mass is 265kg for a reference point.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by miatanut

If a driver found themselves completely confounded by the lack of a fender over there, the team could mount a little wire with a dingle ball on the end where the fender would be. It would cost them a little drag but if that's what it took to keep from knocking rear corners off the car, that would be a fair trade.

My dad's going to die laughing when he hears this. He used to tell me how a certain group of Americans back in the '70s used to put stiff springs off the ends of their cars so their car wouldn't hit the curbs. For one possible solution we're now going to have racecars use the same concept.

The classic impact between two cars is an open wheel driver hitting a front wing of the car behind with their rear tire, maybe breaking the wing on the other car and cutting their own tire. This design would eliminate that problem by not having front wings out there at the extreme corners to get hit, so this design would actually reduce those "getting tapped in the rear" incidents.

Jenson Button-Lewis Hamilton incident this past weekend. Button moved over either to block or because he didn't know Hamilton was there and created the incident. That's tire to tire. Another example is watch the Marco Andretti in-car camera from his crash at Indy one year where Dan Wheldon turned him over on the backstretch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbArt...eature=related And unlike an oval, these cars when they're at Le Mans won't have spotters telling them "clear", "inside", etc., and the DeltaWing driver in this case has no frontal reference point for the size of his rear wheelbase when moving across the track.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

My dad's going to die laughing when he hears this. He used to tell me how a certain group of Americans back in the '70s used to put stiff springs off the ends of their cars so their car wouldn't hit the curbs. For one possible solution we're now going to have racecars use the same concept.

Jenson Button-Lewis Hamilton incident this past weekend. Button moved over either to block or because he didn't know Hamilton was there and created the incident. That's tire to tire. Another example is watch the Marco Andretti in-car camera from his crash at Indy one year where Dan Wheldon turned him over on the backstretch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbArt...eature=related And unlike an oval, these cars when they're at Le Mans won't have spotters telling them "clear", "inside", etc., and the DeltaWing driver in this case has no frontal reference point for the size of his rear wheelbase when moving across the track.

They were called "curb feelers" and I would say they were a '60's thing, although there were still cars that had them in the '70's. They were mostly used by old people who didn't know where their car ended. They worked by making a noise when the car got close to the curb, so the driver would know not to drive any closer and scratch those nice chrome hubcaps. If race drivers are truly as inept as you say they are, yes, it will be necessary to have a version of curb feelers for race drivers. I think they can adjust for it. Sportscar drivers can't see the actual wheel but they can still get close to the apex by creating a mental plumb bob from the fender to the tire. They can also create a mental yardstick from the chassis to where a front tire would be.

I would say a driver would knock off a rear corner before he hit another car in the sort of incidents you describe, but if you had a bunch of these racing together, you would have a lot less problems because there wouldn't be a lot of front wings to knock off. That would have been a good move for the Indy bunch, because the owners could all have zeroed-out their front wing budget. Indy's loss is our gain.

And as bjohnsonsmith points out, this design eliminates the potential of the classic open wheel interlocked wheels accidents. If anything, this design significantly reduces accidents relative to the classic approach. Fortunately ACO is open to things that don't comply with the limitations of the current rules.

[lms]

Originally Posted by kingkai

What the hell is this project about. In my opinion this car has no place at LM! And shouldn't the prototypes look rectangular from above and with the front wheels being in the same place as the rear wheels?... Thought that was one of the design rules for LMP?...
No this just look like one of those kiddy racers which should be left as miniatures to play with...
This car doesn't fit in sportscar racing in my eyes.

you are exactly right. Not to mention that there are supposed to be two seats in lmps, even in coupes. That seems to be a tradition. On the other hand, no one said that this thing is an lmp car.

[MitchZ06]

I know its bad form but I'm hoping if this thing makes the race it either fails or crashes out on the first lap and we see no more of it...Sorry Highcroft but this was a bad idea (why not take up my offer?)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

You can make them a lot lighter by making an aluminum block but then that has no relevance to road car design because an aluminum block can't meet EU and EPA emissions targets.

The smallest diesel engine my company makes is a 3.3-liter and its mass is 265kg for a reference point.

The DW is using a 1.6T WRC/S2000 motor, Seat have used a 2.0TDI in the WTCC, this is a FWD car, so weight over the front is crucial.

[miatanut]

Taking a little trip down memory lane I bumped into the Wiki on curb feelers and it mentioned modern electronic parking aids. That made the solution to any perceived problem obvious. You could have little colored LEDs, like shift lights, connected to laser distance measuring equipment and if a driver had the distance to the imaginary front wheel correct, the lights would be yellow. If it was 1 cm from causing rear wheel impact with a wall or other object, one light would be red.

I think feedback from running curbs would allow drivers to develop a very good feel for how they should place the car but if a driver needed an aid, laser distance measuring could do it with no aero drag penalty.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I know its bad form but I'm hoping if this thing makes the race it either fails or crashes out on the first lap and we see no more of it...Sorry Highcroft but this was a bad idea (why not take up my offer?)

Some people would say the same about diesel's, hybrid's, finned cars etc., a conservative approach to motor racing is not what Le Mans is about.

This is one car, for one year, if cynics are correct it will struggle to hit the track and be a failure. If, on the other hand, the DW achieves P1 pace with half the horsepower and ground effects, it will be a revelation.

Future LMP's won't look like the DW, but it could hint at how much power could be reduced if future focus is on weight and drag reduction, two things that could give the IC engine a much longer lifespan on road and track.

[joeb]

I was thinking that Brabham would be the perfect driver for this car because of this experience driving the old Panoz LMP with a long nose. I also have the feeling that modern professional racing drivers have the ability to judge the size of the rear of their car and not run into things.

[gttouring]

Any new pics... they have to get working in it and no point keeping anything secret

[grantp]

I have to say that seems like a solution looking for a problem.

However I'm not one to baulk at innovation. Heck I was around when the Tyrrell P34 hit the scene and look what effect that had ...

Hmm. Great iconic car stuffed by the regulations.

If they talk to Dean Kamen they might be able to come up with something that offers incredible stability on a nominally 2 wheel chassis profile (although perhaps using 4 wheels to satisfy the conservative regulations) and that would be really cool.

No practical application to family transport of course, but really cool.

[skycafe]

in some ways it is like the Tyrrell P34. The narrow front was drag reducer. Of course the air just continued unabated to the huge, wide rear tires, but hey. TheTyrrell used the extra wheels for the grip potential lost by narrowing the track so much.

Was a delta built to show the indy people? I believe I read it was to have tested last August?

I guess it is a good thing it has found a home in LeMans because I can't figure out where they would have pitched it next, although a Baja desert racer could have been a hoot!

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by the real Stig

originally delta wing only had 3 wheels the from being a single non-steering fat tire, this was then changed to twin front tires to gain more credibility. It's was originally designed as rear steering which is one of the reasons why one of the engine designers in the league distanced it's self from the project. (I'm very close to Indy car racing & lemans design and this is what I know).

So may be to gain more credibility they've switched to front steer, only I'm guessing if they have they've not figured out how to do it yet. The under model has no cut outs for steering movement and even if it did I can't imagine how you package a pair of wishbones, springs, dampers and a rack is such a narrow package. I can't see the packaging it especially considering the lock required to negotiate chicanes and Arnarge.

The closest thing to delta wing I can think of is the Honda F1 land speed car.
Really light, no wings but big power.

I'm thinking this project is like Delorian, tax payers beware. (government funding for green energy research)

Did you actually bother to watch the video/read the information on the car? Second video down on the link I posted... plenty of lock there!

Gordon Kirby wrote a good, balanced article about the DeltaWing (with views from both the guys involved with DW, and John Barnard), and the front suspension is described in there, steering included. It's simply dual wishbones, with directly attached upright shocks. Pretty simple really.

(picture taken from the Kirby article)

You keep citting the mock-ups as not having cut-outs for steering, as far as I'm aware they don't have engines either, so take those with a pinch of salt!

The original IRL proposal DID have front steering/two wheels (the Kirby article was written before the LM car came out), and as far as I'm aware, thats the way the LM car is done. I think you want to check your sources on that front, and check out that article!

Anyway, is the car right for LM? I'm currently un-decided, it's good to see something different, but will is it what we want for the future of the race?
IMO, as an IRL car, the concept worked, but for LM, I'm not so sure.

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I'm confused as to how close you could be when reading multiple links with interviews with the designers no mention was ever made of it having been a 3 wheeler at any point. In fact they mentioned a couple time that the tight front dimensions made packaging the front suspension was a no-brainer return to dual wishbones with spring and dampers between them. And since the suspension is internal, the components could be built purely for maximum strength without aero needs to compromise design; they referred to both thin-walled round tubing or milled aluminum I-beam designs. It sounds like they have made rolling chassis and have tested the car in a rolling road wind tunnel with Firestone who have developed new fronts (4" wide custom molded) and re-purposed rears (Indy Lights front tires). At the very least Firestone has load tested the tires they developed for the car so far and are comfortable with putting the tires on a track safely.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no238.html was posted earlier this year in response to Indy, not sportscars but think the information still applies. And no I'm not a fan of the design, and not sure it would work for multi-class racing and almost positive it will take some adjustment for drivers to remember the rear width.

Agreed... see my above post.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Was a delta built to show the indy people? I believe I read it was to have tested last August?

It was, I believe it was also backed by the teams but they went with their friends at Dallara.

I'm looking forward to seeing it. If it works there will be some shocked faces around the track.

[Audi Racer]

I have to say what a car. But i dont think it'll be very reliable and it could be dangerous for the rest of the GT field. Look at the shape of that car.
dcarffgfgb==
=========
(GTE Car)== Crash

Can you imagine a gt car getting clipped by the rear tires. The driver is going to need to be looking in his mirrors at all times. The front end of the car is very narrow giving the impression that you can fit thorugh a narrow gap . However the rear end will get stuck and hit a GT car.

What significance does this serve. This isn't the future for Lemans prototypes. That car is a formula racer not an LMP car. It kinda jsut seems like an ambitious waste of money that will suffer from issies with performance balancing a very light weight car.

The Wirth Coupe/ honda engine tie up was a deal that Dunca DAyton needed to glue together. I got the impression that Highcroft racing is the glue that keeps HPD and Wirth research working together. i think it was a foolish move by duncan dayton.

[Audi Racer]

It just struck me like a brick. The sheer insanity of trying to race thi design against the other Lemans cars.. How do you even race against this kind of car. What happens if this car trys to go door banging with a peugeot 908. The LM protoypes can get very close to each other but this car does not have a tolerance for door or wheel banging.

In a series u need all of the cars to matchup in terms of body panel structure in order to prevent awkward accidents. The GTE cars can take some door banging from and LMP. and vice versa.

Think of nascar. The bunpers align so bump drafting is safe.

This car doesnt align with anything else we've ever seen. Oh my goodness me Dayton is ambitious.



What i am saying is it is a lovely car but it has absolutely no business at Lemans.

[JAG]

Car could debut at Sebring according to Autosport.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer
I have to say what a car. But i dont think it'll be very reliable and it could be dangerous for the rest of the GT field. Look at the shape of that car.
dcarffgfgb==
=========
(GTE Car)== Crash

Can you imagine a gt car getting clipped by the rear tires. The driver is going to need to be looking in his mirrors at all times. The front end of the car is very narrow giving the impression that you can fit thorugh a narrow gap . However the rear end will get stuck and hit a GT car.

What significance does this serve. This isn't the future for Lemans prototypes. That car is a formula racer not an LMP car. It kinda jsut seems like an ambitious waste of money that will suffer from issies with performance balancing a very light weight car.

I Think that they will put 1 laser in each back extremity and project the light in the track so the driver can know the real dimension of the car.
The car is very ugly but I like the new ideas and I agree to see this car in the sport cars racing.

Originally Posted by Audi Racer
The Wirth Coupe/ honda engine tie up was a deal that Dunca DAyton needed to glue together. I got the impression that Highcroft racing is the glue that keeps HPD and Wirth research working together. i think it was a foolish move by duncan dayton.

Maybe Dunca Dayton got tired to wait that Honda approved the LMP program

[WolfsburgRS]

I still can't help but think that NONE of what this car proposes is new?

We have had ground effect aero (now outlawed). We have had lighter weights (now raised to higher and higher minimums) and we have had / do have production based engines. They may not be in the diesels, but we've got them out there, and have in the past as well, including small 2.1 4-cylinder motors in prototype machines. (Gurney's Toyotas)

A 2.0 4-cyl turbo VW-powered Reynard won LMP675 in 2001.

Give free reign to a designer to come up with a proper sports car with these same principles and to absolutely no rules at all (super light weight, low drag, ground effect, lower horsepower stock-derived motor) and I guarantee they can come up with something competitive, safe, "innovative" and is relate-able to both fans and racers alike.

The only thing that is new about this car is the shape, because it is a ridiculous novelty, not a sports car.

[skycafe]

What were the weights of the WR93 and everyone's favorite, the Debora, from back in the early-mid nineties? The WR actually took pole in 1995, I believe, before some panic by the ACO. I do have to say though, after watching the two Audi wrecks, I am not really sure I want too much scrimping on materials to reduce weight at the potential compromise of safe structure. Granted, those are diesels and suffer some weight penalty due to that, and we know they also carry some ballast, but a halving of weight does seem to stretch prudency in safety.

The Garage 56 announcement called out for new technology but as I recall little definition of anything further. I agree with with Wolfsburg RS, the only thing new here is the shape and it is a ridiculous novelty. It is not a sports car. GreenGT demonstrated a funcioning electrics sports car during LeMans week, and the same car prior at Pau. Several automakers are offering such vehicles for purchase now as everything from city type cars to sports cars (Tesla). MIT is working on liquid battery technology. Hope debuted at LeMans a hybrid, Porsche has gone that route in a way and has begun to prove it in racing too. Mazda, the company that restored and showed off the 787B that won twenty years ago, is said or understood to be working on hydrogen fuel cells.

I really thought the 56th garage was meant for those sorts of things to be showcased.

The Delta could have a market-put a Harley Davidson motor in it, paint some flames on the side and send it to Daytona Bike Week, it would be a hit on the beach front.

Robert