Saloon car series

[R59]

I think I said it in my one liner.

The open saloons races are successful, even mid-season when pot hunters are tied in to their futile attempts to wrestle for the silverware.

They also seem to be budget entry fees, but when you pay for your slot on the basis of £/min, fill the grid, share the benefits with the competitors.

Fill the grids, punters love it. Fill the grandstands. We all win.

Championships? Who cares? Come on, let's face it 90-95% of us never stand a chance in a championship, either through reliability, not being able to do every round due to family committments, or work, or not going to every circuit because you don't like going to Knockhill for a ten lapper when you live in Brighton.

And it seems that many people are not worried about forming up on the grid with cars far faster (or slower) than themselves. It's the racing that counts. It doesn't matter if you see the chequered flag first, just as long as you see it!! That's why some people are happy to race in multi-class championships/races in cars that wouldn't stand a cat in hell's chance of the overall win. I did it for quite a few years, and had a heck of a lot of fun.

So what makes you ask Denis? Are you looking for ideas to revitalise ModProds. It's sad, but Al's ol' baby looks to be on it's last legs, and there's nothing left to amalgamate with it, only a few championships that could absorb the cars. Your car would fit well in the pre-93 Touring Cars Denis. After all, it was the Corrolla that scored Chris Hodgetts his BTCC crown!

[216gti]

Shame to hear the Corolla is misbehaving, hope it's not serious. Hi Colin, you had a good weekend, got to love the Rovers, real wash'n'go racing.
In reality PenelopePitstop has hit the nail on the head, "Value for money" (can't work out the quote thing), I can't knock the WRDA, this year it's got a good mix of away circuits and is no more expensive than other championships but at an average of almost £600 in total per weekend for 2 x 15 mins at our home circuit, VFM doesn't spring to mind.
I know racing isn't cheap, it never will be but there must be a balance, we had 5 Rovers last year and could have had a good season but one ran a 2 litre Turbo, one fitted a V-tec, the whole idea became diluted and now there's only one left so the fun factor doesn't match the expense.
To answer the original question. Full grids, sensible entry fees.

[nyssa7]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Is it rules consistency, performance equalisation measures (eg single tyre supplier, selected cars), restricted regulations, open regulations, class structure, circuits visited, atmosphere, entry costs, circuit time etc etc etc.

Having someone to play with, and somewhere that allows your choice of car to race

I race the only racing Lancia kappa around, almost certainly the only one on the planet. I could possibly get away with it in the T&RC series with a couple of mods to bring it back in line with their regs, but the modified class in the LMA Euro Saloons allows pretty well anything short of a spaceframe. If it is basically recognisable as the base car, its probably OK

Engine swaps OK, transmission swaps OK, you could even build a mid engined Fiesta if you wanted. Pretty sure Al's big Yank would be OK, the monster Belmont might even be

Downside of running in the top class (for me) is the super tourers, I'm not going to be chasing class (or overall) wins but it is a privilege to see these cars close up. But being a multiclass series, there are plenty of cars in the other classes more on a par with my car, so plently of people to play with. Have had good battles with a Clio Cup car, BMW M3, Honda Civic R so far, and the likes of the Integras and Tomcats keep me on my toes

If you're running a smaller car (as I have done in the past), being lapped is a fact of life in any multiclass series, but LMA ES has enough smaller cars for them to have cars to arce with too

[Al Weyman]

I think the ModProds falls halfway between CTRCC Pre93 and Classic Thunder. Persoanally I think the Pre93 is a little too tight and the Classic Thunder a little too loose and somewhere between the three a compromise could be met. For example I was going to run in Pre 93 but the one thing I cannot get around is the weight thing as it means I have to carry ballast, also there are some other issues now I have developed the car a bit more. Having said that the development I have done is only to get the thing on par with say a good SDI that may have some of the things I have done as standard from the factory.

I think Modprods should allow the following and the reason I say this because since I wrote the original rules such things as rose joints have been introduced and it has taken it away from the original concept so it is no longer one thing or the other, these (and maybe more) would bring it more in line and allow more vehicles to enter:

1) Freedom of gearbox provided not a purpose built racing unit (eg Hewland) and standard H type gearchange.

2) Allow conversion to coil over suspension and moving of suspension pick up points provided standard points remain as original, used or not.

3) If original car has rear axle weakness then this can also be substituted for a replacement axle from another manufacturer (again not a purpose built race unit).

4) Pattented heads of any material as long as same configuration as existing allowed.

5) Any tyre from List 1a or List 1b.

6) Any additional suspension components (anti roll bars, 4 links etc) allowed. This would allow cars like the SDl to do away with that infernal torque arm arrangement.

7) Any panel that unbolts i.e. Doors, Bonnet, Wings could be substituted with lightwieght alternatives.

8) Glass could be changed to plastic.

One thing I would definitely not change and I think BTCC are sadder because they allowed this, and that is the fitting of none standard Wings, spoilers and airdams. Anything that was fitted to a production car in period fine but nothing else. This IMHO is very important as the model then retains it's original identity. It is also a very easy job to remove the offending appendiges should you have a car with such items fitted and wanted to compete.

Hey we are not far away from Classic Thunder now so a little massaging there and we could be getting somewhere!

[phansa88]

nice set of rules but you still got the racers who bend them to there requirements .when there are cars coming pass me that are not quite what they should be . so how do you regulate this to make it fair for all in whatever classes their in. do you do it in cc or bhp?

[Al Weyman]

Stand up and be counted and put in a protest if you are convinced someone is bending the rules. Thats half the trouble with us English, we are too polite and see ourselves as grasses if we report a misdemenour but unfortunately when there are many different makes and models racing it is totally unfair to let policing it fall on the shoulders of a volunteer regs scrut. These club championships MUST have a degree of self policing to work.

[big andy]

what club racing needs is 3 basic class
road saloons
modified production
modified specials
all three class split into 3 class upto 1500cc ,1500cc to 2100ccover 2100cc
i imagine every saloon car in the country will fit into one of these class.
then we could have 3 championships north,midlands and south at the end of the year take the class winner of each region and have a uk final
would this be to easy?

[Ian Sowman]

I don't think it would work, because you'd need to destroy a lot of what is already there. And there is some strong stuff out there that doesn't need messing with...

[Al Weyman]

I think that is a bit too simplistic Andy and each actagoury would need its own set of rules. You would also end up with 9 classes!

[Alan Cherry]

Hows this for a weird one !
How about no rules ! -just has to resemble a saloon car
classes are in lap times - win too many and you move up a class - trail round the arse end, and you move down a class -
You couldn't do a full c'ship like it - there would be no incentive for the quicker boys - but I don't care if im against an 850 mini or a 5 litre camaro as long as I can have a good race - perhaps one or two of these bargain bucket races appearing could be classed like that - any thoughts ?
Thats at least until I win the lottery, and have a bigger budget than anyone else !

[big andy]

at the end of the day we all race to race ,i dont care if i win all lose as long as im racing and not touring around by my self .best race this year finished 6th had a 10lap battle with paul browns mini miglia ,same day won MG metro cup by a country mile which was a little boring

[Al Weyman]

Yeah thats ok until you find out that the guy doing all the winning and getting all the glory is cheating, what then, Are you still as happy to loose?

[big andy]

al most of the racing i do is unlimited mods anyway so no one can really cheat ,there are people in my class with iffy ie cars not the original silloutte but i dont moan because i like racing against them,whats the point of getting rid of the competiton and then having no one to RACE against

[Al Weyman]

No something like that fair enough as I doubt it gives any big advantage but I still believe firmly that a proper set of regs is reguired in any successful race series.

[djinvicta]

Looks like theres a market for HUGE rear mirrors. Al; agree with you. If someone is insecure enough to cheat to win, shop em...

[big andy]

regs only put people off ,building a car to a certain set of regulations does'nt make sense. That car is then only eligible for that championship, it is alot better to build/buy a car that will fit in several championships, not be stuck with a car that is specific to one championship.

[R59]

Al,

Your ideas for opening up the regs in Mod Prods takes it close to being Class B in DTRC, so why not just do Class B DTRC, why have another championship with similar rules.

In a way, this is what's killing some championships, where they have similar rules but "another" series offers much the same, but more mods.

A straight forward open saloons, capacity split classes, with minumum weights based on engine capacity, maximum tyre width based on the same, and success ballast for the winners, which keeps getting added if they keep winning!!

I agree with you about Pre-93 Touring Cars - regs are too tight - I thought touring cars ran dry sumps.... Pre-93 doesn't allow it, and a lot of the cars that ran in those days NEED dry sumps to survive at that spec.

What can be seen is that the mostly "open" championships have good followings among club racers - LMA, DTRC, D&DMRC, BARC-NW, WRDA, etc... which tells us that it must right. Perhaps a convergence and or ratrionalisation of rules would be a good idea, so they all sing to the same hymn book, which would make life much more easy for people trying to work out what to do.

[Al Weyman]

Your ideas for opening up the regs in Mod Prods takes it close to being Class B in DTRC, so why not just do Class B DTRC, why have another championship with similar rules.

Well for one reason they have capacity grids already, secondly they are a regional southern based championship so no good if you want to try all UK tracks. Also and with respect to our Graham Barr, they allow fitting of turbo chargers to non turbo charged motors that would be OK if they ran then in class A as in my opinion thats paramount to an engine swap, but no controversally they allow them to stay in class which means in effect I could trbo charge my 5.7 chevy and still stay in class B which is a bit daft. Finally Class A is a catch all for everything from 4wd's to spceframes and sillouttes so realistically it is most probably a Class A car will be overall winner which some people may not like paying second fiddle to so you see IMHO they are not the same as my proposal at all!

[Liam22]

Originally Posted by big andy

regs only put people off ,building a car to a certain set of regulations does'nt make sense. That car is then only eligible for that championship, it is alot better to build/buy a car that will fit in several championships, not be stuck with a car that is specific to one championship.

I don't agree with this.

If you want/need to go racing on a tight budget then tight regs *ought* to help. Otherwise those with bigger budgets are given a disproportional advantage.

[Al Weyman]

Good thread this Dennis!

I agree with that Liam. The only time it can work against you is when what on the surface appears to be tight regs get abused and I will give you an example.

In the ModProds the decision was taken to allow adustable rose jointed suspension. Now on the face of it that looks more expensive but if you stop and think about quite the opposite is true and why? Because what was happening (and by those that should no better) certain people were consealing rose joints in standard suspension components (much dearer than buying off the shelf monified TCA's) but it did not stop there oh no. They had several made up of different lengths and used to go to the track with a crew and extensively test the best set up. Now you cannot tell me a bit of adjustability would have been far better and cheaper in the long run and also get rid of the cheats by making it not worth while.

I have recently fitted a coil over conversion on one of my cars and am currently setting up the corner weights. Still hard work but ions easier than messing about with different length springs and spacers which some will do and spend hours and hours with their expensive computerised scales when the rules do not allow coil overs. Also 2.5" springs are dirt cheap, I paid 15 years ago £240 for a pair of H/Duty specially made springs for my old car because the regs would not allow the conversion.

So you see just sometimes what on the surface looks budget is in fact more expensive and I learnt this lesson years ago when in the Road Saloons I was told catagourically that the STANDARD road springs had to be used then happened upon the co-ordinator changing his STANDARD springs for something far less than standard behind the big hanger at Snetterton! Ever wondered why some people always seem to so much faster than others in one makes, they ain't better drivers as a rule, trust me. :-)

[Liam22]

Agree with all that

There's no point regulating something that cannot be effectively policed or where the regulation is a false economy. Coilovers with off the shelf springs are a good example.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In the ModProds the decision was taken to allow adustable rose jointed suspension. Now on the face of it that looks more expensive but if you stop and think about quite the opposite is true and why? Because what was happening (and by those that should no better) certain people were consealing rose joints in standard suspension components (much dearer than buying off the shelf monified TCA's)

While, on the face of it, this sounds reasonable, it can be a dangerous way to operate.

Why? Well, the problem is where do you stop? Someone is suspected of cheating with rose joints, so you allow rose joints. Next, someone is suspected of cheating with exhaust manifolds, so you allow them to be free. Pretty soon a vast swathe of the regs are 'free', and those on a budget struggle to keep up with whatever suspension part/engine mod is en vogue this week.

I guess what I'm saying is, If you're going to have tight regs, you need to enforce them tightly too.

[Matt Speakman]

Chris & Colin, I have just acquired my 2nd 216 Gti - raced one in Super Coupe for 2 years & loved it, sold it to A.Allitt (wales) & miss it dearly! Anyways, got another & will be racing it June 23/24/25 @ the 56th MGCC meet @ Silverstone in the 75km & 100km endurances. After this I'm not sure what to do with it, though one thing that cropped up was the Pre-93. Sir Nigel competes in his Rover Tomcat & it looks to be a good series. What I'm getting at is...would other 216 Gti owners consider the Pre-93? From the lap times I've seen Sir Nigel's Tomcat went round Brands Indy in a 57/58s - a time the 216 Gti is more than capable of...thus providing close racing. LMA is great - taken my Clio out a few times in it & had good battles with the Lancia of Nyssa7 & hung onto the back of Hammersleys Cleland Cavalier, however if 216 Gti owners were to commit to Pre-93 close competition would always be available...

[Al Weyman]

Anyone who can hang on to the back of John Hammersley what ever he is driving ain't doing bad!

Chris, manifolds etc and most engine mods were already free so it made no odds.

[andypipe]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Because what was happening (and by those that should no better) certain people were consealing rose joints in standard suspension components (much dearer than buying off the shelf monified TCA's) but it did not stop there oh no. They had several made up of different lengths and used to go to the track with a crew and extensively test the best set up. Now you cannot tell me a bit of adjustability would have been far better and cheaper in the long run and also get rid of the cheats by making it not worth while.

Who was that then Al?