Saloon car series

[Al Weyman]

You don't expect me to say on air Andy do you but it certainly was not you or the Essex contingency, at least not to my knowledge :-) Just lets say I see it and it was then it was decided to go the rose joint thing for better or worse. Incidently our rules as you recollect allowed lengthening of the TCA's so to try different length ones was not illegal but bloody time consuming!

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Matt Speakman

however if 216 Gti owners were to commit to Pre-93 close competition would always be available...

You would be most welcome Matt. I've had few calls from Tomcat owners,
(other than Sir? Nigel. Didn't know that we were entertaining royalty )
who are considering trying Pre-93.

[Alan Cherry]

On the face of it, the nearest thing to a fair budget series is the budget beemers - The racing looks close - is it as fair as it looks ? what are the entry fees like, and is it now a national series ?

[johnw]

Production BMW Championship
It's a great championship. Well and easily policed.
Close racing with in-house driving standards consistently policed and implemented.

Entry fees are BARC standard rate (£170 for 15 mins qually, 15 mins race- more at the expensive circuits. For example, £190 at Brands).

Ability to enter a second race (at a reduced rate) in the CTCRC Pre-93 series within their own class.
Yes it's a National championship providing full grids at each race thus far.
Any more info, try www.classictouringcars.com

[R59]

Having tight rules doesn't stop people from spending megabucks, having more "slack" rules allows for "scrapyard engineering" for those who like doing their own development (as well as letting those with deep pockets buy more of the best, and still come nowhere near first).

Some of us know people who spent more money on a cluster of cars in their posession than many of us did on houses, and they still didn't win!

Then you take the Rover 216GTi as an example - when the championship was running, if you didn't have a budget of 50K to run it, you weren't anywhere! And those rules were so tight you couldn't f*rt through the gaps! And what's more, the car was bog standard, except for the slicks. The money was spent making that bog standard car do the business.

So, having tight rules makes no difference to the cost of competing.

Rob.

[big andy]

well said rob tight rules do not make for cheap racing it just means people spend more money try to extract the last 100th second,

[johnw]

Originally Posted by racing59

So, having tight rules makes no difference to the cost of competing.

Maybe, but tight rules can negate the effects of that spend.
Explain how £50K can be spent on a "bog standard" car Rob. I can't see where without cheating, or making it non-standard.

[big andy]

testing ,testing ,and more testing,a blue printed engine 8 grand ,more testing ,seam welding more testing,tyre pressures more testing ccc used to run one(216gti) and there budgetted 50k

[R59]

Simple. You spend money on lots and lots of testing, to extract the best setup possible.

New brakes for every meeting, new tyres for every meeting, dyno-testing the shocks to make sure you've got the best shocks possible, buying lots and lots of "standard" springs, and testing them to make sure that you have the best set. Then spending lots of time to get the car as close to spot on as possible within the rules. To get that, you need a jig sheet, and a port-a-power! Add to that a crew to do the work, and a couple of re-shell's not to mention some panel damage to resolve.

I seem to remember the Tomcat turbo's were bigger money, requiring gearboxes, driveshafts

Welcome to the world of high profile one-make racing.

[Al Weyman]

That is exactly why we started the ModProds and I still think the rules for that championship are basically sound allowing drivers to be a little inventive. I think the biggest spend was on the power units and when guys started shelling out 5 and 6k on CVH engines it started to get silly. I did make a suggestion once that we try to introduce a rev limit but was told it could not be policed and probably right but if it could it may have been a way forward if a solution could be found.

[johnw]

Thanks Rob and Andy
8 Grand for a blueprinted engine - Get the manufacturer to seal the production unit?
Restrict testing? The Legends seem to be successful at doing that.
Police the tyres via the scrute? Ensure that they are used for multiple meetings.
Supply the springs and shocks, then mandate their use?

Can't think how else to restrict the chassis tuning, but ban seam welding.

Would this help level the playing field?

[johnw]

Al
There are ways of policing the rev limit these days with datalogger technology, but at a price. (£500.)

Pretty sure that something could be purpose built for much less.

[R59]

Originally Posted by johnw

Thanks Rob and Andy
8 Grand for a blueprinted engine - Get the manufacturer to seal the production unit?
Restrict testing? The Legends seem to be successful at doing that.
Police the tyres via the scrute? Ensure that they are used for multiple meetings.
Supply the springs and shocks, then mandate their use?

Can't think how else to restrict the chassis tuning, but ban seam welding.

Would this help level the playing field?

There were no blueprinted engines in the 216 series, they were manufacturer sealed units. The Metro Challenge before that had some very expensive engines as they were built to the spec set down by Roversport.
There was no restriction in testing, or tyres, etc... and it was a big money package. Banning seam welding? For the 216's that would have meant a replacement shell every four or five meetings, for the Tomcats, every other meeting at best - they just fell apart! Another reason not to buy one for the road!

They achieved suspension stiffness by using bump rubber and plastic "C" washers to pack out the travel in the dampers. Getting that right was part of the art of making one quick, which took the time during testing!!

Like I said, a port-a-power was an essential tool to ensure the chassis was set up spot on, a small knock in the race could make the difference between first and 15th in terms of laptimes.

But that's all history now.

Back to matters at hand - Saloon Car Series ideas

It looks like there's a difference of opinion about keeping rules tight, to no rules at all. I favour close to the no rules at all.

Road Saloons - MOT-able - road tyres (1a or 1b) - original engine, restricted mods, probably more like the Super Road Saloon rules which were simple, yet allowed the driver to develop the car within reasonable limits.

Modified Saloons - Steel shelled, modified suspension points, change of gearbox / axle, but original engine for model, unlimited mods (dry sumping, etc..), plastic in place of glass, etc.. Simple aerodynamics.

Special Saloons (a) - Steel Shelled - as per Thundersaloon type rules, a true saloon car, not GT, 2 squeeze 2 types, you could say proper 4 door cars, or their 2/3door equivalents. Front engine only, 2wd only. Aerodynamics as per the whim of the driver!

Special Saloons (b) - Does it have 4 wheels and fit in to the Saloon type category? OK, it's in! Anything goes. Merlin engine'd Fiat Cinquecento, yep, bring it on!

Now to join the 21st Century - fuel - BIOETHANOL, or BIODIESEL, or other renewable energy source that smells like it might burn (wood burning steam turbine?)

Taking existing modified, multi-make championships into perspective, the most successful in terms of numbers almost use rules like this now (except for the fuel) (and hot / stock hatches excepted too but that's a 750MC success story).

Sadly, ModProds has run it's course. And unless there's a massive influx of competitors later this season, I think it's end of season bash will be a wake.
Denis, fit ya dry sump, get some slicks, and come DTRC-ing.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by racing59

Denis, fit ya dry sump, get some slicks, and come DTRC-ing.

Yippee. An extra 3-4 grand one off costs and 1-2 grand a year running costs to never be able to win my class (assuming I got off the reserve list and got to race) if someone built a decent class D 2 litre pug 205 (I am multi valve and have to jump up a class, despite producing less power, a lot less torque and weighing more than the equivalent dual valve car). The fact that in the DTRC the dual valve class E cars are currently wiping the floor with the class D indicates that the current class D cars probably aren't a true representation of what could be possible with a suitable budget etc,

And I don't get to go to a varied selection of circuits like Cadwell Park, Anglesey and Pembrey.

The problem and reason why I believe Mod Prods is worth saving is there is very little between very limited modified cars and very highly modified slick shod bewinged cars.

However if there is no market for Mod prods, or other series keep fiddling with their rules to absorb Mod prods section of the market, then it either needs to adapt or die.

I would like to see it adapt, hence the original reason for this thread.

Hopefully the new management will introduce to ideas and enthusiasm and allow our market share to be regained.

[Al Weyman]

Blimey Rob bang that last nail in the coffin why don't you!

Now with respect I do not agree with that anything goes road as you end up with machines like yours, 740 bhp in a thing weighing under 1300kgs, how many people are going to be put off racing in the same field as that, I think a bit of realism is required here and in my book Open rules = Open cheque book as I sure you are feeling the pain right now. I don't think it was the ModProd rules that are wrong is others jumping on the band wagon, I believe your beloved DTRC is based on the original ModProd rules I wrote as BARCSE did phone me once and ask permission to use them. Also one ModProd trip to Castle Combe and they copied our rules more or less chapter and verse and we never got invited back!

The other one big factor that I have not mention in the ModProd rules but unfortunately the monied amoungst us got it thrown out, we had a buying/selling plate. That made a lot of cheque book racers think twice. Personally when it was eventually dropped I think an engine selling plate should have been tried as that may have been more practical.

From reading Dennis's posts I think he would get blown away in the DTRC by the self same cars that are doing that in modprods, i.e. Pugs and Fiestas, I (personally) think he (if he wants the leave ModProds) should really race it in a period class like Pre 83 Tourers even if he had to downgrade it slightly as it will never hold a candle aganst these modern lightweights (I can't catch them myself with twice or three times his BHP!). At least in Pre 83 he will not be up against some of them.

[greenamex2]

Al, my car is NOT pre-83, it is pre-93. And the bodyshell is too modified for pre-93 and I would just be back in the same position again against exactly the same cars, 2 litre pug 205's.

[216gti]

So there is something to be said for having a basic car after all then!
Hi Matt, I'd love to race with some other Rovers, I've got 2 and I'm sure that I could get someone out in the spare if I don't sell it, with yourself and Colin I'm sure we'd have a bit of fun. Do you know of any others? Anthony has sold his, it's still in the Welsh and the chap that bought Matt Perkins car is not using it yet.
I found the '93 season video on E-bay last week, bit of an eye opener to see them when they were new!

[Al Weyman]

Sorry Dennis I thought it was 84 model year that may have been actually launched Aug 83 as they normally were. Its like my Camaro, officially a 71 model but launched tailend of 1970.

[greenamex2]

It was launched and available in Aug 83, but pre-83 is pre-83 not 83 and before.

[216gti]

Hi Denis, bit off topic I know but I've got a 82 RA 63 Celica ST coupe that I'd like to do something with, do you know anyone that could advise on or supply prep parts. I know the early ones didn't make a bad rally car but I've not seen one circuit racing.

[greenamex2]

The best starting point would probably be Richard Macer on 01462-481 660.

If I remember I'll dig out my copy of the "Toyota Performance Handbook" and see if there is anything useful in there. Which would be a first.

Most of the stuff on my car is 'bespoke' because nothing useful was available when we were developing it. Now there is lots of stuff but it's all for drifting and useless for racing.

[216gti]

Thanks for that, it would be nice to think that I could do something useful with it, I've had the car about 5 years and couldn't just let it retire gracefully.

[Matt Speakman]

So...from reading this there is one common denominator...too many people wanting too many different things & not much agreement! There are so many different cars out there & so many different chamionships to race them in, some championships with not many cars whilst others burst...& to cap it all the odd £150 double header appears from no-where!!

I may be wrong...but what we all would like is close, competitive racing that doesn't cost the world?

From my point of view, Super Coupe was a fantastic championship - shame it ended (& i'd suggest some of the negative competitors in it may have contributed to this). Close racing, a variety of cars, & unless you were running a btc production car not very expensive. Cap tyres to 2 per meeting, only allowed to test before the meeting & away you go. Clio Cup ends this year...where will those cars go? MG trophy only had 7 cars last week - what'll happen to that?

In an ideal world (outside of toca/VW cup/one make)...

Road Saloons
Mod Prods
CTCRC championships
Super Coupe type championship
DTRC

All championships require policing - freedom to do anything results in the wealthiest at the front & the reat becoming fed-up?

Trouble is...whatever is done...there's never enough ££££

[Al Weyman]

Trouble is...whatever is done...there's never enough ££££

Unfortunately the way of this sport, if you can't run do motor racing!

[greenamex2]

Huh?