[WEC] LMP1 where do we go from here?

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Wouldn't both Indy Car and Super GT engines need to be reworked/remapped around the fuel flow meters?

Originally Posted by carbsmith

No, they even use fuel flow restrictions in place of ballast after a point.

The GT500 cars always have fuel flow restrictors (95kg/hr now), but the success ballast does lower the numbers after 50kg (Sam, we need that video )

[Mal]

To me it needs two things:

1/ A lowish budget entry level prototype class with limited development opportunities for manufacturers to come and play - ie LMP1 with OEM engines and limited hybrid (like F1) if wanted by the entrant
2/ A totally open 'Prototype' class that is true to its name where manufacturers can come and showcase / develop / test new technology - the only rules... you cant use fossil fuels and some basic chassis and safety parameters - do that and see where it goes

[chernaudi]

Does anyone think that if the privateer teams materialize that someone might go for the Gibson 4.5 V8 or the Judd 5.5 V10? They've been offering those engines for a while after they re-spec'd them to the fuel flow meters, but no one's bought one.

Only engine I keep hearing about if the Mechachrome twin turbo V6 developed from their GP2/F2 engine.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Mal

2/ A totally open 'Prototype' class that is true to its name where manufacturers can come and showcase / develop / test new technology - the only rules... you cant use fossil fuels and some basic chassis and safety parameters - do that and see where it goes

Maybe in a few years, but it might be pushing premature at this point.

[Speed-King]

Some rather scathing words regarding the attractiveness of LMP1 by Porsche head of development Michael Steiner:

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17080703.html

The current generation of LMP1s was apparently only viable and exciting for a short period of time.

Other talking points:

• Winning against Toyota is worth less than victories against Audi, since Toyota aren't competitors of Porsche on the road.
• Porsche are disappointed by the level of media and fan attention created by WEC. Le Mans works from that point of view, the 6h races don't, especially considering the budgets.
• Steiner understands why the 10MJ subclass was canned, but the move failed to attract a new manufacturer, i.e. Peugeot.

[carbsmith]

Everybody knew coming in that WEC wasn't a high profile series, it was supposed to be the manufacturer commitment to grow it to improve their investment in Le Mans. That's probably why there's so much frustration from the ACO side. WEC was practically created for Audi with the backing of VAG (Porsche announced they'd be joining before Toyota, remember)

Now we've had Peugeot bail on the eve of the first season because of government politics, Nissan embarrass everyone with their completely half-baked entry, Audi leave for reasons that are totally unrelated to the championship, and Porsche opportunistically withdraw without even seeing out the last season of their commitment (when they won't even be racing in Formula E next year anyways), all leaving poor Toyota holding the bag.

In any event it's a joke to say the Fuji or Shanghai 6 hours is lacking profile but some ePrix isn't.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Some rather scathing words regarding the attractiveness of LMP1 by Porsche head of development Michael Steiner:

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17080703.html



Other talking points:

• Winning against Toyota is worth less than victories against Audi, since Toyota aren't competitors of Porsche on the road.
• Porsche are disappointed by the level of media and fan attention created by WEC. Le Mans works from that point of view, the 6h races don't, especially considering the budgets.
• Steiner understands why the 10MJ subclass was canned, but the move failed to attract a new manufacturer, i.e. Peugeot.

All potentially fair observations but odd that no mention whatsoever is made of the other external and corporate factors, neither does he appear to have been pressed on them.

Reality is that whether or not the above were factors, the DEFINING issues were of VAG's, and the wider industry's own creation.

Audi, acknowledged above by Herr Steiner as their competitive benchmark, left almost solely because of the impact of 'Dieselgate'

Porsche too are now firmly and directly embroiled in the issue with their cars being recalled and the brand now involved in the legal repercussions.

The alleged technology 'cartel' issue too is having a major corporate impact. VAG et al re 'locking down' on programmes that are currently a cost centre and the brands are involved in a rapid-fire push to re-invent themselves with cleaner tech.

Formula E can be justified as it is a (in fact currently THE) Standard bearer in motorsport for full electrification.

Some of the GT racing programmes can be justified as they are profit centres, not cost centres. Others may struggle as we get to new model cycles - Watch this space!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

All potentially fair observations but odd that no mention whatsoever is made of the other external and corporate factors, neither does he appear to have been pressed on them.

I wouldn't say it's odd, as the Porsche head of development isn't going to admit it was his companies faults and failings that caused it. You're obviously correct about your points, but it's clear Porsche are going to gloss over that and make their excuses and leave. That's just business - it doesn't look good to say "yeah we f**ked up". It looks better to say "We're off to do something green!". The reality could be very different.

And as you know (I don't mean you're guilty of this, but I'm sure you know some who are!), some people won't ask the hard questions, so the report just becomes "Porsche are leaving and it's all the ACOs fault". Shame.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I wouldn't say it's odd, as the Porsche head of development isn't going to admit it was his companies faults and failings that caused it. You're obviously correct about your points, but it's clear Porsche are going to gloss over that and make their excuses and leave. That's just business - it doesn't look good to say "yeah we f**ked up". It looks better to say "We're off to do something green!". The reality could be very different.

And as you know (I don't mean you're guilty of this, but I'm sure you know some who are!), some people won't ask the hard questions, so the report just becomes "Porsche are leaving and it's all the ACOs fault". Shame.

My point - as I am certain you fully understand - is that the interview was a far from comprehensive round-up of the issues in play!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

My point - as I am certain you fully understand - is that the interview was a far from comprehensive round-up of the issues in play!

Agreed (hence my last sentence). What's more depressing is this interview is now making the rounds on reputable sites, with mention of the additional problems the VAG faced.

[chernaudi]

Even without dieselgate at VAG (who are still profitable in spite of all the lawsuits and claims), I don't think that LMP1 was sustainable due to cost and lack of interest. That's my opinion on the class as a whole.

I'm also of the opinion that if the rules changes were phased in slower, costs could've been contained.

Now dieselgate is an industry problem, as well as cheating on fuel economy. We have the German cartel, and I'm surprised that people haven't complained (especially in the still fairly rural US) about hybrid fuel economy. A Ford Fusion hybrid gets 47mpg city, but it gets no better mileage on the highway, the opposite of what's normally expected from non-hybrids.

Ethanol is also kinda a crock, because you take a fuel mileage hit and a lot of it's made from corn rather than switch grass or waste biomass.

I'd rather see more efforts be put into renewable or synthetic low emissions fuels before we go all EV and fuel cells. Mostly because such technology can be implemented soon, and EV cars (again, in rural areas) aren't a good bet for buyers.

Until they can be made affordable, have range comparable to that of a gasoline or diesel engined car, and can be recharged in like 5 minutes, EV's are going to have a hard time becoming mainstream.

How does this relate to LMP1? New tech is what might draw factory teams back in, but the whole industry is having problems, be it emissions, fuel economy, the market place, profits, supply and demand, and anything else you can name.

Maybe LMP1 needs to take a step back for a while and just become an "entertainment" focused formula like DPI is. Of course, I don't think that straight up DPI is the answer. The cars need to be faster and development needs to be more open before I'd consider using DPI as the base for LM's top class.

But the ACO I feel need to act fast. They should've been proactive, knowing how unstable factory backed racing could be. Now they have to react, whilst seeming acting ignorant to the realities of what's going on now.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Some rather scathing words regarding the attractiveness of LMP1 by Porsche head of development Michael Steiner:

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17080703.html



Other talking points:

• Winning against Toyota is worth less than victories against Audi, since Toyota aren't competitors of Porsche on the road.
• Porsche are disappointed by the level of media and fan attention created by WEC. Le Mans works from that point of view, the 6h races don't, especially considering the budgets.
• Steiner understands why the 10MJ subclass was canned, but the move failed to attract a new manufacturer, i.e. Peugeot.

Another interview: http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/s...e-competition/

“We would have liked to have more competition.”

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by deggis

Another interview: http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/s...e-competition/

“We would have liked to have more competition.”

It seems Herr Steiner has a particular point he wished to get across exclusively to several people!

[chernaudi]

I think that this is in combination of what Porsche felt was worth the investment and the fact that VAG want to be seen as saving face/saving profits. Spending F1-like money for little in return isn't going to look good, especially when your company's parent company is getting sued over dieselgate and might get sued by the German Government and the EU over an anti-trust/anti-competiton cartel. The latter point being basically IMO the EU and Germany not being able to sue Volkswagen Group or anyone else directly over dieselgate since they didn't technically break any laws at the time due to EU emissions testing loopholes.

This reeks of what the FBI did with Al Capone. They and the state of Illinois couldn't make murder, racketeering, and bootlegging illegal liquor charges stick, so they got him on tax fraud/tax evasion. It was the only thing they could pin on him.

[Akrapovic]

An exclusive you can find anywhere? I need a dictionary, my head hurts.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

An exclusive you can find anywhere? I need a dictionary, my head hurts.

As a point of style interviews tend, by their very nature, to be exclusive. A non-exclusive interview tends to be more accurately called a press conference!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

As a point of style interviews tend, by their very nature, to be exclusive. A non-exclusive interview tends to be more accurately called a press conference!

That's a good point! So if he's doing a bunch of interviews which are all basically identical, are they all exclusives? I feel like we're getting a bit more into philosophy, when the real topic is dieselgate.

[TF110]

Imo, it looks like he's trying to point out things that are 'negative' about the series using that as a justification of leaving the lmp1 class. Reflecting the blame on them is a lot easier than to admit your company screwed up in it's road car division and has massive consequences that reach to the lmp1 program's survival.

[AoB Special Stage]

I may have forgotten Ferrari F50 arse= Graham Goodwin.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by TF110

Imo, it looks like he's trying to point out things that are 'negative' about the series using that as a justification of leaving the lmp1 class. Reflecting the blame on them is a lot easier than to admit your company screwed up in it's road car division and has massive consequences that reach to the lmp1 program's survival.

Yet that's not killed the VAG to F1 rumors. Either VAG have some cards they're not showing, or they hope that the engine supply route could make them some money.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But the ACO I feel need to act fast. They should've been proactive, knowing how unstable factory backed racing could be. Now they have to react, whilst seeming acting ignorant to the realities of what's going on now.

What should be the ACO rapid reaction?
Perhaps the first thing would be to correct the mistake they made in the beginning, that is to equalize all the hybrid categories.
They should lower the performance of the 8MJ, 6MJ and 4MJ all to the level of 2MJ. This would not give back the marks that went away but allows to limit a little the performance of Toyota with respect to the LMP1 P and maybe someone tries a 2MJ car.

[TF110]

All they need to do is to open up the fuel flow and others can compete. I think that coupled with a bigger tank will allow privateers and/or low hybrid cars to go just as fast.

[TzeiTzei]

Slap a 100 kw limit on the hybrid and 50 kg more weight. Then we might have something worth watching.

[hondafan37]

Good interview to Ralf Juttner in Sportscar365.
Some Interesting observations:

With the potential of no manufacturer-run prototypes competing for overall wins in WEC races next year, many have suggested the integration of IMSA’s DPi formula to LMP1 as an immediate, potentially short-term solution.

However according to Juttner, who is now spearheading Mazda’s DPi team in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship, it’s not as easy as it looks, particularly with the new-for-2017 LMP2 cars thrown into the mix.

“[DPi] could be a solution, a quick solution, but then again it’s not as easy as it probably seems,” he said.

“The first side, you cannot just say OK, we hope there are so many private LMP1s coming next year but some people dream about eight. I would be surprised if there were three or four.

“But then to take DPis and put them against those LMP1-Ls, then you have to make them quicker than the LMP2s, which you’ve seen how quick those are.

“If you want to get those cars at Le Mans four or five seconds quicker than an LMP2, then I think you are quickly reaching a limit with those cars as well. The engine and stuff, it will break.

[Akrapovic]

I don't think DPi should replace LMP1, but as an invitational IMSA class at Le Mans? That sounds fun.