Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Motorsport History

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 9 Jan 2013, 12:40 (Ref:3186834)   #1
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Peugeot 205/309 GTI Group A

I found an entry for a 1600cc 205GTI in a mid 80s Touring Car race that was part of ETCC, so presumably it was GpA or N? I guess there was no works involvement (rallying a different story) but am curious as to who raced them and where. In production from 1984 (205- 309 '85) to early 90s. 309 would obviously be in 2 litre class, 205 in 1600 or 2 litre.

I'll start searching for more info but welcome input from all the Touring Car experts!

Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 9 Jan 2013, 19:21 (Ref:3186973)   #2
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
A German team ran a Group A 1600 205GTi in the ETCC for quite a while from about 1985 on, without any success against the Corollas in the 1600 class
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendaman/6283044041/

There were a couple of 205 appearances in the BTCC- again a 1600cc car- in 1986 for the Peugeot Talbot Sport GB rally team, who turned out for the British GP support and at least one other race with an adapted rallycar for Mikael Sundstrom, who scored a fairly spectacular class win in the wet at Brands (something like 3rd overall, albeit in a race with a fairly depleted grid)


I don't think I remember a 1.9 205 in Group A racing, though there were quite a few around in Prodasloons- Mike Jordan ran a 309 for about half a BTCC season in 1989 though
http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...-28372122@N05/
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Jan 2013, 20:07 (Ref:3186997)   #3
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KA View Post
A German team ran a Group A 1600 205GTi in the ETCC for quite a while from about 1985 on, without any success against the Corollas in the 1600 class
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendaman/6283044041/

There were a couple of 205 appearances in the BTCC- again a 1600cc car- in 1986 for the Peugeot Talbot Sport GB rally team, who turned out for the British GP support and at least one other race with an adapted rallycar for Mikael Sundstrom, who scored a fairly spectacular class win in the wet at Brands (something like 3rd overall, albeit in a race with a fairly depleted grid)


I don't think I remember a 1.9 205 in Group A racing, though there were quite a few around in Prodasloons- Mike Jordan ran a 309 for about half a BTCC season in 1989 though
http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...-28372122@N05/


Thanks for all that. I remember Mike Jordan in the 309, and the ETCC 205 looks like the one I found reference to!

I reckon a GpA 1.6 205 would squeeze into the JD Classics Challenge which is up to end of 1985. Would make a relatively cheap but fun entry.
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2013, 15:08 (Ref:3187310)   #4
T-Man
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Germany
Germany
Posts: 47
T-Man should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The german pink/blue 205GTi was raced by Hans 'Ali' Frensch, who has been racing Talbots and Simcas before that.

Here's a picture from the "Frensch Power" website

http://www.frensch-power.com/media/7...03694ceaff.jpg

Since the car never appeared in the DTM my guess is that it was mainly driven in the Nürburgring Langstreckenpokal (VLN nowadays)

I also think that the car was entered under the Haribo Racing Team banner at least a few times.
T-Man is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2013, 21:27 (Ref:3187427)   #5
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Man View Post
The german pink/blue 205GTi was raced by Hans 'Ali' Frensch, who has been racing Talbots and Simcas before that.

Here's a picture from the "Frensch Power" website

http://www.frensch-power.com/media/7...03694ceaff.jpg

Since the car never appeared in the DTM my guess is that it was mainly driven in the Nürburgring Langstreckenpokal (VLN nowadays)

I also think that the car was entered under the Haribo Racing Team banner at least a few times.
Thanks for that info! The Haribo car raced at Donington, round3 of ETCC 1985 and finished in 19th position. Will have a look to see where else it raced.

Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2013, 22:05 (Ref:3187450)   #6
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
Definitely appeared at Brno, Silverstone for the TT and Zolder at least, so it looks as if it was a fairly regular runner in 1985, and a pretty good fit for that pre-85 series you mentioned

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-06-09-082.jpg

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-29-080.jpg


No idea if it was the same car, but Frensch came back with a bright pink 205 in 1988:


http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-130.jpg
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2013, 22:29 (Ref:3187456)   #7
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Yes, 1985 was only year by looks of it. 6 rounds, 3 finishes, plus a dnf, dns and dsq! Car was entered by 'Autohaus' at Silverstone, maybe meant to be Autohaus Frensch.

Also in '85 Vedovati Tuning entered a 205 for Monza, driven by Vedovati and Peroni. Finished 21st.

From results, the Pug was no match for the best Corolla, Golf or Audi 80, so looks like one year of trying was enough.

Not sure about the pink......
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 11 Jan 2013, 15:41 (Ref:3187782)   #8
Andy Clegg
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 398
Andy Clegg should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It wasn't entered in 1986 Tourist Trophy.
Andy Clegg is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2013, 16:52 (Ref:3188232)   #9
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
I think a Gti would make a decent relatively low cost proposition for the MRL series.

I'm guessing you know of a car with some period racing history then Mike?
chunterer is offline  
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2013, 19:19 (Ref:3188271)   #10
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
IIRC Mike, you are something of a 205 expert........
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2013, 21:10 (Ref:3188303)   #11
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
IIRC Mike, you are something of a 205 expert........
Hardly think expert, but knew my way round them in 80s! I've got one in workshop right now, stripped to bare shell, but it's a LHD French spec 1294cc Rallye. Bought back memories and got me thinking, though.

Sadly James I don't know of a car with period race history, and would be surprised if such an animal exists now. Would be great to be proved wrong though.....

Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2013, 21:53 (Ref:3188320)   #12
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A 309 GTi would be a great car for the 360 6 hours - a bit more stable than a 205 over a long stint. Loved my road car.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 12 Jan 2013, 23:38 (Ref:3188366)   #13
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
Sadly James I don't know of a car with period race history, and would be surprised if such an animal exists now. Would be great to be proved wrong though.....
There don't seem to have been too many Group A race 205s around in period, which is always going to make it harder to find one still around-

I wonder about the car Mikael Sundstrom used in a couple of 1986 BTCC rounds though- it was one of the Peugeot Talbot UK Group A rally cars, as driven by Louise Aitken-Walker and others in 1985/6-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16788879@N02/5104907817/

Of course, being a rally car, if any of them do survive, what are the odds they're still in the original shell?
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Jan 2013, 06:33 (Ref:3188436)   #14
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KA View Post
Of course, being a rally car, if any of them do survive, what are the odds they're still in the original shell?
Virtually zero, I would think! Rust isn't as severe a probem on French built Pugs of that period as some other makes, but they were made out of steel about thickness of rice paper! Shells were very much a 'consumable'. And to seam weld them required all the carefully applied sealant to be removed.......

Agree Andy about 309, with added advantage of standard power steering- which is useful if using a plate LSD!!
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 22 Oct 2015, 15:05 (Ref:3584763)   #15
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
Hardly think expert, but knew my way round them in 80s! I've got one in workshop right now, stripped to bare shell, but it's a LHD French spec 1294cc Rallye. Bought back memories and got me thinking, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post

I reckon a GpA 1.6 205 would squeeze into the JD Classics Challenge which is up to end of 1985. Would make a relatively cheap but fun entry.
Mike, did you ever get any further with this?

The Roger Albert Clark Rally Club are going to run an asphalt historic rally series next year. Historic Rallying Category 4 is 1981 up to the end of 1985......

Just day dreaming........
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 27 Oct 2015, 06:56 (Ref:3585886)   #16
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
A 309 GTi would be a great car for the 360 6 hours - a bit more stable than a 205 over a long stint. Loved my road car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post

Agree Andy about 309, with added advantage of standard power steering- which is useful if using a plate LSD!!

Just found the following on the "Rallye-info" web site. Clearly written by an "enthusiast" and perhaps not very objective but interesting anyway. I doubt any of us would swap an E30m3 for a 309(!) but a 309 might make an interesting "cheap" project if you can find one:


"The less obvious reason was that the 309 should have been a better performer in groupA than the 205! Isn't the 309 bigger and heavier? Exactly! The 205, like so many French cars, is a nippy, crisp, oversteering FWD. The 205 however has one little disadvantage. As light and short as it is and with engine, transmission and drive all located at the front, it is a very front heavy car. The 205 rear end could occasionally become very nervous over bumps or under heavy braking. The 309 has a slightly bigger rear axle, giving the car a wider rear track and a longer wheelbase, also handy for a more settled ride at speed. Further, surprisingly the groupA 309 GTI weights only 20kg (50kg in groupN) more than the 205 and all of that added weight is in the rear end design, behind the rear axle. Hence, the 309 is a more settled and confidence boosting car than the 205. Therefore it had slightly more potential....

....... The first car to give the Opel Kadett GSI 16v a run for its money in the 16v real-hot hatch category therefore was indeed the Peugeot 309, that in 1990 was launched as a limited edition 309 GTI16. The GTI16 delivers 160BHP and is much lighter and more nippy than the notoriously understeering Kadett GSI 16v. This was a time when FWD cars had it ever harder to compete for overall results in WRC events, but the 309 GTI16 was an ultra exciting car nevertheless. If you compare a road going Peugeot 309 GTI16 to a BMW M3 of that time, the 309 is 270kg lighter but is only 35BHP down in power! - Work out power to weight ratios from this and the unbelievable becomes obvious: the 309 beats the M3!"

Last edited by andy97; 27 Oct 2015 at 07:02.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 3 Nov 2015, 12:31 (Ref:3587787)   #17
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
309 GTi Group A only ran the 8valve engine which was the real handicap.

If it had been homolgated to race with the 16 valve unit, it may have been a different story.
chunterer is offline  
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
Quote
Old 3 Nov 2015, 13:05 (Ref:3587801)   #18
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterer View Post

If it had been homolgated to race with the 16 valve unit, it may have been a different story.
It was.

8v 309 homologated in Group N and A in April 1987

16v 309 homologated innGroup N and A in Oct 1990
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 3 Nov 2015, 13:10 (Ref:3587805)   #19
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
It was.

8v 309 homologated in Group N and A in April 1987

16v 309 homologated innGroup N and A in Oct 1990
Bit late for BTCC Class C by then though?

Its competition was running in 1987-89 in Britain.
chunterer is offline  
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stockhatch 205 GTI issues Hickey1 Rallying & Rallycross 4 18 Nov 2010 01:00
Pug 205 GTi? Eddie_harasym Track Day Forum 11 5 Jan 2005 20:01


All times are GMT. The time now is 00:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.