[ELMS] Is there room for an LMP2+ category?

[Speed-King]

Just a thought I had while watching the ELMS race:

It's great to see that the series pretty much has recaptured the vibe of the 2005-2006 era, but somehow I still feel that there is a little something that's missing. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first, but then I realized that I miss "big" prototypes. No, not the current hyper-P1s, they are in WEC and that's the place where they belong, but something more conventional like the Pescarolo, Zytek, Creation of yore.

Now I am wondering: Would it be viable to add an LMP2+ category to ELMS (and perhaps also to TUSCC come 2017)? What I mean by LMP2+ is cars built to the LMP2-chassis rules and to that or a similar pricecap, but with more powerful engines, somewhere in the 600bhp-range or something thereabouts. You could either use older P1 petrol engines for that or current generation DP-engines.

I really think that this would add quite a bit to the ELMS' product and help it to regain a true headlining series status in a way that the anaemic current P2s really can't.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just a thought I had while watching the ELMS race:

It's great to see that the series pretty much has recaptured the vibe of the 2005-2006 era, but somehow I still feel that there is a little something that's missing. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first, but then I realized that I miss "big" prototypes. No, not the current hyper-P1s, they are in WEC and that's the place where they belong, but something more conventional like the Pescarolo, Zytek, Creation of yore.

Now I am wondering: Would it be viable to add an LMP2+ category to ELMS (and perhaps also to TUSCC come 2017)? What I mean by LMP2+ is cars built to the LMP2-chassis rules and to that or a similar pricecap, but with more powerful engines, somewhere in the 600bhp-range or something thereabouts. You could either use older P1 petrol engines for that or current generation DP-engines.

I really think that this would add quite a bit to the ELMS' product and help it to regain a true headlining series status in a way that the anaemic current P2s really can't.

Wouldn't a pricecapped P1 category not be a better idea? only allow year old cars and no factories.

[Rodger Davies]

If anything, I'd say a class for full pro lineups and one for pro-am. But 11 cars is nice for a class, so I'd rather they leave it alone for now.

[Speed-King]

I don't think one could run current P1 cars at a sensible price-cap... you probably need factory techs to run the hybrid systems and then there's the whole problem of the factories wanting to guard their secrets, not to mention the limited number of (theoretically!) available cars...

[Deleted]

Having non-proam headliner class would be ideal... LMP2, while healthy, isn't exactly the most thrilling to follow

I still think that the main reason for the downfall of privateer LMP1 is the fact that they cannot run anywhere in Europe (and now in States either) unless they sacrifice themselves for that expensive world series with works cars

[deggis]

No, more classes, championships with sub-classes inside them and confusion is not a good idea.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by deggis

No, more classes, championships with sub-classes inside them and confusion is not a good idea.

In my mind having more classes is acceptable only when they are actual categories with different cars... ie LMP1 and LMP2, GT1 and GT2, GT3 and GT4 etc. Not GTE-PRO and GTE-AM, LMP1-H and LMP1-L and so on, they're artificially separated in weak attempt to please everybody.

I've said it before but with GT in particular I wouldn't mind having even five different categories for them if it meant less BoP and waiver politics

[tux]

Its a nice idea but im not sure if the finances would be there.

[nobster]

Why not, if there are enough cars around, it could be merged into the championship, perhaps wit BOP.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

In my mind having more classes is acceptable only when they are actual categories with different cars... ie LMP1 and LMP2, GT1 and GT2, GT3 and GT4 etc. Not GTE-PRO and GTE-AM, LMP1-H and LMP1-L and so on, they're artificially separated to please everybody.

I've said it before but with GT in particular I wouldn't mind having even five different categories for them if it meant less BoP and waiver politics

Amen to all of that.

Another thought: Ten years ago, the headlining prototypes and GTs were earth-shattering 600bhp+ machines... now prototypes and GTs are at a measly 450bhp, which in the case of the GTs is less than what their road going counterparts make. I really hope this discrepancy will get resolved in the GT/GT+ rules, but if they do that, they almost automatically have to give more power to the top class prototypes as well.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Another thought: Ten years ago, the headlining prototypes and GTs were earth-shattering 600bhp+ machines... now prototypes and GTs are at a measly 450bhp, which in the case of the GTs is less than what their road going counterparts make. I really hope this discrepancy will get resolved in the GT/GT+ rules, but if they do that, they almost automatically have to give more power to the top class prototypes as well.

As sad as it is to say this, I would think the only chance of old GT1-esque class appearing any time in the next 10 ish years is if mr Ratel gets one of his 'great ideas' and says that the time is right... he still has that dream, check Spa 24 podcasts from last year. ACO doesn't wanna go there, GT/GT+ sounds like another mix of the GTE/GT3 BoP formula when you listen what manufacturers have said. They have target lap times for prototypes so they're don't speed them up too much, yet they (unfortunately) want to regain the gap to the GTs -> so I doubt the power levels will be increasing...

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Amen to all of that.

Another thought: Ten years ago, the headlining prototypes and GTs were earth-shattering 600bhp+ machines... now prototypes and GTs are at a measly 450bhp, which in the case of the GTs is less than what their road going counterparts make. I really hope this discrepancy will get resolved in the GT/GT+ rules, but if they do that, they almost automatically have to give more power to the top class prototypes as well.

Not really if they at the same time lower aero and electronics to lower levels to compensate, but that's much easier said than done.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

As sad as it is to say this, I would think the only chance of old GT1-esque class appearing any time in the next 10 ish years is if mr Ratel gets one of his 'great ideas' and says that the time is right... he still has that dream, check Spa 24 podcasts from last year. ACO doesn't wanna go there, GT/GT+ sounds like another mix of the GTE/GT3 BoP formula when you listen what manufacturers have said. They have target lap times for prototypes so they're don't speed them up too much, yet they (unfortunately) want to regain the gap to the GTs -> so I doubt the power levels will be increasing...

Eh, I think - at least in terms of raw engine power - some GT3 aren't too far away from where GT1 used to be... Audi is at a "factory-rated" 570bhp, so it's probably gonna be quite a bit more than that and the bodykits seemed to get wider every year as well until the this year's tech-freeze.

BoP vs development based is of course another question, but getting the horsepower back alone would be a big step in the right direction.

Come to think of it, maybe they could use (some) GT3-engines for my hypothetical P2+...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Come to think of it, maybe they could use (some) GT3-engines for my hypothetical P2+...

Sub-5-liter normally-aspirated GT3 engines, in theory, are already eligible as LMP2 engines.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Sub-5-liter normally-aspirated GT3 engines, in theory, are already eligible as LMP2 engines.

I'd love to see the turbo Bentley motor in a p2+ chassis.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just a thought I had while watching the ELMS race:

It's great to see that the series pretty much has recaptured the vibe of the 2005-2006 era, but somehow I still feel that there is a little something that's missing. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first, but then I realized that I miss "big" prototypes. No, not the current hyper-P1s, they are in WEC and that's the place where they belong, but something more conventional like the Pescarolo, Zytek, Creation of yore.

Now I am wondering: Would it be viable to add an LMP2+ category to ELMS (and perhaps also to TUSCC come 2017)? What I mean by LMP2+ is cars built to the LMP2-chassis rules and to that or a similar pricecap, but with more powerful engines, somewhere in the 600bhp-range or something thereabouts. You could either use older P1 petrol engines for that or current generation DP-engines.

I really think that this would add quite a bit to the ELMS' product and help it to regain a true headlining series status in a way that the anaemic current P2s really can't.

While I think that the ELMS is great in its current form.
I really think this is very much needed in the IMSA championship.
If IMSA can regain its status as the premier sports car series in America, then I think that the series could support a class of all pro super LMP2+ cars.
P2+, GTLM and GTD would be epic!

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just a thought I had while watching the ELMS race:

It's great to see that the series pretty much has recaptured the vibe of the 2005-2006 era, but somehow I still feel that there is a little something that's missing. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at first, but then I realized that I miss "big" prototypes. No, not the current hyper-P1s, they are in WEC and that's the place where they belong, but something more conventional like the Pescarolo, Zytek, Creation of yore.

Now I am wondering: Would it be viable to add an LMP2+ category to ELMS (and perhaps also to TUSCC come 2017)? What I mean by LMP2+ is cars built to the LMP2-chassis rules and to that or a similar pricecap, but with more powerful engines, somewhere in the 600bhp-range or something thereabouts. You could either use older P1 petrol engines for that or current generation DP-engines.

I really think that this would add quite a bit to the ELMS' product and help it to regain a true headlining series status in a way that the anaemic current P2s really can't.

I like this idea. P2ish rules , but a bit more power and a bit more freedom would be great. TUSC could do this in 2015, not sure if it can wait in 2017.

IMSA and ACO, are you listening?

[NaBUru38]

Can't LMP2 cars do 3'35 and GTs 3'50?

[Matt]

What's keeping a TUSC P2 team from putting a DP engine in a P2? I mean the limit for non-turbo LMP2 motors is 5.0l and 8 cylinders...which just so happens to be the max liit for DP's as well...

[MagVanisher]

You know what, I think the LMP2 class should have more leeway when it comes to engine regulations.

I think it's boring to hear V8s and V6s, turbocharged or not, all the time.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Matt

What's keeping a TUSC P2 team from putting a DP engine in a P2? I mean the limit for non-turbo LMP2 motors is 5.0l and 8 cylinders...which just so happens to be the max liit for DP's as well...

IIRC, P2-engines have to be homologated with the ACO... and then they'd be choked down to 450bhp anyway. A 600bhp-P2 would destroy everything that's on the track in TUSC right now...

[madfast]

the future of LMP2 is very likely a cost capped LMP1 chassis with production based engine. if they allow more power and more engine freedom, they should just phase out LMP1-L for this new faster LMP2...

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by madfast

the future of LMP2 is very likely a cost capped LMP1 chassis with production based engine. if they allow more power and more engine freedom, they should just phase out LMP1-L for this new faster LMP2...

Well, I can agree with you. Besides, the LMP1 class is dominated by manufacturers with privateers like Rebellion Racing will struggle against them.

[Starfish Primer]

I think LMP2 techincal regulations are fine. Maybe the upgrade would be just to remove the mandatory Silver driver in the lineup.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

IIRC, P2-engines have to be homologated with the ACO... and then they'd be choked down to 450bhp anyway. A 600bhp-P2 would destroy everything that's on the track in TUSC right now...

It'd still have the torque!