[WEC] Are American Manufacturers incapable of fielding LMP1?

[Bobby_status]

Originally Posted by dbagtbag

I think the Porsche chassis is made in house.



I'd think they are. They have some massive resources at their disposal and it only takes the same deep pockets to hire a team of top notch engineers to bring them up to date on LMP technology and aero.

That being said the last time Cadillac and Chrysler had a shot at the LMP class, Audi just turned around and took a dump on them and it was pretty embarrassing for the supposed 'Audi beaters'.



They also put a lot of money (GM) into Indycar, although the chassis is not by the Big 3. Last year GM beat HPD so bad that engine regs were changed.

Also given the amount of emphasis the Americans put on branding and such, its not surprising they tend to stick to GT cars that have a more obvious connection to their road going models.

A lot of GM's money is implemented in marketing and not so much in R&D. That INDYCAR engine your quoting is designed and build by Ilmor UK not Chevy. HPD got lazy and decided to use there 2012 spec single turbo. While Ilmor build Chevy a twin turbo setup that resulted in a 10mph advantage over HPDs. I don't think the Big 3 can afford to do any bespoke ventures like LMP1 or F1 anytime soon because requires a lot of money and commitment.

[dbagtbag]

Originally Posted by Bobby_status

A lot of GM's money is implemented in marketing and not so much in R&D. That INDYCAR engine your quoting is designed and build by Ilmor UK not Chevy. HPD got lazy and decided to use there 2012 spec single turbo. While Ilmor build Chevy a twin turbo setup that resulted in a 10mph advantage over HPDs. I don't think the Big 3 can afford to do any bespoke ventures like LMP1 or F1 anytime soon because requires a lot of money and commitment.

Thats true, the chevy indy engine is designed and built by Ilmor.

And I agree the financial status of the big three are not where they need to be if they were to be more liberal with their motorsports programmes.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Ford is cutting racing programs and funding left and right including the scams that John Farce Racing in NHRA and Roush Fenway in NASCAR were pulling on them.

I don't really see what GM would stand to gain from fielding an LMP1 car especially since they already have a presence at Le Mans that takes up about half the U.S. coverage.

[TRspitfirefan]

Are American manufacturers incapable of fielding LMP1?


I seem to remember the Panoz achieving an occasional victory against the Audi's.
Considering the fact that the Audi team is probably the most successful team in the history of sports car racing, I'd say that the Panoz's record is rather impressive!

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

Are American manufacturers incapable of fielding LMP1?


I seem to remember the Panoz achieving an occasional victory against the Audi's.
Considering the fact that the Audi team is probably the most successful team in the history of sports car racing, I'd say that the Panoz's record is rather impressive!

Jan Magnussen on the track of pouring Nurburgring, pole to win!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Pandemonium

The only American manufacturers that can do something proper are Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumann.... Oh Wait...

So the classic American based aerospace companies clearly could do it if they wanted. As cool as it would be, I think they have zero reason to be involved. It is just not what they do and it would be a distraction with no ROI for them. I think the more recent aerospace upstarts is much more likely. Someone with somewhat deep pockets, a new way of thinking, but is also an old school gear head. The closest I can think of is Elon Musk, currently of SpaceX and Tesla fame. The problem with Musk is that given his history (Tesla), he is unlikely to play in the current prototype game (classic hydrocarbon engines). But he might in some type of electric based series. While clearly interested in cars and transportation, he may care less about racing.

Richard

[Articus]

Tesla G56 though!

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Jan Magnussen on the track of pouring Nurburgring, pole to win!

Been watching a lot of the Panoz vs Audi battles lately, and I just watched that race the other day. One of the true classics of sports car racing history.

[Dyson Mazda]

At the end of the day, American manufacturers like the mid 70's NASCAR cliche; "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday." It is what fits their business model. They are companies that build cars for the masses; not the economic elites. The GT classes force the world's elite manufacturers to race with the chassis and engines that their high end sports cars run (unless their name is BMW). Four American manufacturers have taken GT honors at Le Mans over the last 20 years which is quite a feat. P1 is a battle of which companies are willing to drop the largest sums of money on the best automotive and composite engineering firms throughout the world. The class has become fendered F1 which privateers can no longer compete due to costs. I think that it is a great class, however, it is not one that makes sense in North America anymore.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

At the end of the day, American manufacturers like the mid 70's NASCAR cliche; "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday." It is what fits their business model. They are companies that build cars for the masses; not the economic elites. The GT classes force the world's elite manufacturers to race with the chassis and engines that their high end sports cars run (unless their name is BMW). Four American manufacturers have taken GT honors at Le Mans over the last 20 years which is quite a feat. P1 is a battle of which companies are willing to drop the largest sums of money on the best automotive and composite engineering firms throughout the world. The class has become fendered F1 which privateers can no longer compete due to costs. I think that it is a great class, however, it is not one that makes sense in North America anymore.

And yet I've never understood WHY NOT (in regards to selling high end supercars and sports cars)..

Porche, Ferrari, Mclaren, Lotus,

There is MONEY to be made in that market. Ferrari funds it's whole F1 operation by selling sports cars. Porsche does not sell an insignificant number of cars in the U.S.

There are enough people in the U.S. that have the money and would buy a GM or Ford branded supercar. The only reason why they wouldn't sell would be their looks and performance.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Danathar

And yet I've never understood WHY NOT (in regards to selling high end supercars and sports cars)..

Porche, Ferrari, Mclaren, Lotus,

There is MONEY to be made in that market. Ferrari funds it's whole F1 operation by selling sports cars. Porsche does not sell an insignificant number of cars in the U.S.

There are enough people in the U.S. that have the money and would buy a GM or Ford branded supercar. The only reason why they wouldn't sell would be their looks and performance.

Ferrari, Porsche, and Lamborghini are really the only companies that have been able to do it long term while remaining economically stable. On top of that Lambo has never really put any money into racing programs.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

At the end of the day, American manufacturers like the mid 70's NASCAR cliche; "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday." It is what fits their business model. They are companies that build cars for the masses; not the economic elites. The GT classes force the world's elite manufacturers to race with the chassis and engines that their high end sports cars run (unless their name is BMW). Four American manufacturers have taken GT honors at Le Mans over the last 20 years which is quite a feat. P1 is a battle of which companies are willing to drop the largest sums of money on the best automotive and composite engineering firms throughout the world. The class has become fendered F1 which privateers can no longer compete due to costs. I think that it is a great class, however, it is not one that makes sense in North America anymore.

Very well said.

I sometimes question why Peugeot ran and Toyota are even in P1 when they don't make vary many super performance sports cars.but then again I really like Toyota and they are the number one manufacter in the world right now so I won't question them much.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

P1 is a battle of which companies are willing to drop the largest sums of money on the best automotive and composite engineering firms throughout the world. The class has become fendered F1 which privateers can no longer compete due to costs. I think that it is a great class, however, it is not one that makes sense in North America anymore.

I don't think that's true anymore. Toyota and TMG do what they do on a very small budget compared to Porsche and Audi. This is believed to be what enticed Nissan and two more unnamed Manufacturers to return to P1. Looking forward to several exciting announcements for Le Mans race week. If you are clever and have good engineers, you don't need to spend a lot of money.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Very well said.

I sometimes question why Peugeot ran and Toyota are even in P1 when they don't make vary many super performance sports cars.but then again I really like Toyota and they are the number one manufacter in the world right now so I won't question them much.

because their business model is not race on sunday, sell on monday. They want to market new technologies because they are technological leaders and this indirectly sells cars. American auto manufacturers tend to lag behind the Europeans and Japanese in many of these areas.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Articus

I don't think that's true anymore. Toyota and TMG do what they do on a very small budget compared to Porsche and Audi. This is believed to be what enticed Nissan and two more unnamed Manufacturers to return to P1. Looking forward to several exciting announcements for Le Mans race week. If you are clever and have good engineers, you don't need to spend a lot of money.

Putting this season aside, IMO during the last two years the budget difference between the two has really shown on racetracks. Not only the "we can only afford to run one chassis this weekend" mentality, but generally Toyota has really only been able to challenge Audi towards the latter half of the seasons when Audi had started switching resources to the following year already. And at Le Mans last year they would not have had the chance had ACO not granted them more fuel and bigger flow restrictor after they moaned for BoP

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Articus

because their business model is not race on sunday, sell on monday. They want to market new technologies because they are technological leaders and this indirectly sells cars. American auto manufacturers tend to lag behind the Europeans and Japanese in many of these areas.

Peugeot went the route of "Race on Sunday, beg the French government for a bailout on Monday"

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Articus

Toyota and TMG do what they do on a very small budget compared to Porsche and Audi.

That budget is only small compared to the other manufacturers. It's still easily seven figures where Audi are pushing eight, so it's multiples rather than orders of magnitude. Don't forget that this doesn't include the construction of arguably the world's best motorsport wind tunnel, a remnant from an F1 effort which outspent every team bar Ferrari.

Originally Posted by Chiana

And at Le Mans last year they would not have had the chance had ACO not granted them more fuel and bigger flow restrictor after they moaned for BoP

I wouldn't want to be you right now ...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I wouldn't want to be you right now ...

Don't worry, I'm used to being thrown to the tiger cage for having unpopular opinion

[Articus]

Originally Posted by J Jay

That budget is only small compared to the other manufacturers. It's still easily seven figures where Audi are pushing eight, so it's multiples rather than orders of magnitude.

Well yes obviously. But Toyota is rumored spending half as much as Audi and a third as much as Porsche. For an Auto manufacturer they know Motorsport is expensive but a Toyota like budget is much much more practical for them than an Audi budget.

[dbagtbag]

Where did you lads hear about how much each team is spending? Can any of you guys provide some vague numbers for me?

[Articus]

ball park. I think I recall 100 million for Audi. 40 million for Toyota but that was maybe 2 years ago. One would hope Audi reigned in the cost because Toyota is punching above their financial weight. Porsche is spending at or even more than Audi because they built an entire facility for this program and do everything in-house.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Peugeot went the route of "Race on Sunday, beg the French government for a bailout on Monday"

Speaking of bail out I still wonder how GM got away with the GT1 corvette program through the collapse and bail out.even though they won Le Mans they were only racing them selfs in alms gt1 by 2008, and then in 2009 developed and raced the gt2 C6R.how did they get away with it if they needed all that tax payers money to survive???

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Also it says something,well atleast to me that Toyota runs in NASCAR and Nhra over sports cars or anything else that actually resembles road cars or road car technology.if anything they probably spend just as much sponsoring sports,teams,and stadiums.

I work at a ford dealer as a mechanic and as you'd think surrounded by car people,but nobody really knows about sportscar racing or even cares about NASCAR anymore.theres gm dealers and Toyota dealers near by and I know some of the people that work there.the gm dealer doesn't pay attention to the corvette program and they sell and stock a lot of corvettes,I'd figure they would have som sort of promotion from corvette racing and all the track to street propaganda but a walk through that dealer and nada.same for the Toyota dealer and all their hybrid sales and ads,I'd figure they would know about the ts030 and 40, but I asked around and no knows anything at all just a blank look and a “oh that's cool"

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Speaking of bail out I still wonder how GM got away with the GT1 corvette program through the collapse and bail out.even though they won Le Mans they were only racing them selfs in alms gt1 by 2008, and then in 2009 developed and raced the gt2 C6R.how did they get away with it if they needed all that tax payers money to survive???

The Corvette Racing program was probably saved by the fact that GM got the bailout. I have a feeling the team would have gotten cut if they had to go through the bankruptcy process. There were articles at the time saying they would cut the NASCAR program before they cut the Corvette Racing team due to the sport's relevance. I honestly think that the racing program had a ton to do with the design of the C7, meaning GM got a lot out of the racing team (though I might be naive).

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

The Corvette Racing program was probably saved by the fact that GM got the bailout. I have a feeling the team would have gotten cut if they had to go through the bankruptcy process. There were articles at the time saying they would cut the NASCAR program before they cut the Corvette Racing team due to the sport's relevance. I honestly think that the racing program had a ton to do with the design of the C7, meaning GM got a lot out of the racing team (though I might be naive).

I'm just surprised that the media and general public didn't make a big fuss about it,almost shows how little people know about corvette and it's sports car program.

I find it funny that the c7 has those ducts on top of the rear fender for brake cooling and the pr spin that it was developed from the race car.but yet on the C7.R those ducts are stickers! I was actually a little disappointed when I saw it in person.