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Old 5 Feb 2016, 20:17 (Ref:3612103)   #26
Damian Baldi
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Originally Posted by truebeliever View Post
I agree wholeheartedly with your synopsis my friend

The ACO need P1. They need a "premier" prototype class in my opinion, as you saw what happened after Group C was killed of by Eccelstone, the Le Mans race paled in significance.

So if my assumption is correct and the ACO are not about to move things into a GT only class structure, then they should be doing something to make P1 Privateer more attractive to the P2 teams that do not want to run in a spec series.

I agree with this. I think the P1-L is there just in case the factories leave suddenly. I think if the new Toyota is as slow as last year they could leave at the end of the year. We have a smaller P1 grid at LM this year because dieselgate, it could be anything to make factories to leave, and there is where the P1-L are needed.
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Old 5 Feb 2016, 21:36 (Ref:3612148)   #27
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Toyota's committed to 2017 at least. The wec is the only place they can run a hybrid racecar. That's the enticement of lmp1-h. The price of admission is too high because of a couple teams. That could change with new, more open rules in the next couple years.
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Old 7 Feb 2016, 15:59 (Ref:3612796)   #28
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With 44 cars entered for the ELMS this year, the ACO is not about to change anything.
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Old 7 Feb 2016, 17:55 (Ref:3612809)   #29
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With 44 cars entered for the ELMS this year, the ACO is not about to change anything.
Which is really unfortunate because as it stands the series is not very attractive to fans. When the new P2s come on board it will probably be completely unwatchable. But then again, the fans are not the customers of the ELMS so what does that matter.
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Old 7 Feb 2016, 17:59 (Ref:3612810)   #30
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Which is really unfortunate because as it stands the series is not very attractive to fans. When the new P2s come on board it will probably be completely unwatchable. But then again, the fans are not the customers of the ELMS so what does that matter.

Why is a 44 car grid not attractive to fans?

The ELMS can great racing last year and the bigger grid this year should just add to the fun
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Old 7 Feb 2016, 18:10 (Ref:3612815)   #31
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I would think with spec LMP2 coming. LMP1-H could be more viable but then again this category will face competition for entries from IMSA DPI.

Also IMSA LMPC sucks egg. Get rid of it. All you need is DPI, GTLM, and GTD in 2017
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Old 7 Feb 2016, 20:57 (Ref:3612847)   #32
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DPi wont be hybrid and will basically be prototype gt3 in that it's not a development driven advantage, but a bop series that's semi-spec. Unless they drop continental tire and let teams compete with their own design freedom, there's not much difference except looks and sound.
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Old 8 Feb 2016, 15:17 (Ref:3613093)   #33
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
I suspect one will know the answer to his preference by answering this abstract question:

Would you rather see a grid consisting solely of

* 10 LMP1 Privateer cars?
* 25 LMP2 (Current Spec) cars?
* 40 LMP2 (2017 New Spec) cars?
I'll take those 40 new P2s incl. the new DPs!

Anyway, Yves Courage is already announcing his future P1 project (maybe with a Russian-French alliance?): http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...he-making.html

Might he be trying to steal BMW's hydrogen thunder?
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Old 8 Feb 2016, 18:33 (Ref:3613148)   #34
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For those determined to build their own car, it's the only option. Look at the SCG as an example. He could've run a GT3 for much cheaper, but was set on running his own car.

Basically we came up with a GT3/GTE car (SCG 003C) that pushed the envelope, is very fast, can be BOP'd fairly and the fans seem to enjoy seeing racing.

The problem remains that as we'll never sell the required 250 cars unless a manufacture takes us over/joint ventures with us, we are not allowed to race at Daytona, Sebring, 24 of Spa, Le Mans, or Bathurst.

We really don't see why they won't let us race " a la Delta Wing" but they won't and that's why so far we've only raced the N24/VLN and this year the 12H of Mugello

We are not an approved constructor for P2 so the only class we could race in at Le Mans in a car we designed, engineered and built is LMP1. The reality of that is daunting. We have sourced a great LMP 1 engine, not our current 003C one, and do feel we could build a very interesting and completive car but the money required for development and two years of racing The WEC and Le Mans with a three car team is about 40mm euro more that we've raised so far. We have room for two customers who'd like to join us on a once in a lifetime adventure and additional sponsors who we feel we could get huge world wide exposure but while hopeful understand the odds.

We will race the 12H of Mugello , VLN 1, 6H 24 qualifying race and the N 24 with Two SCG 003 C's. For the sport of it VLN 1, 6H qualifying, and The N24 with our hybrid FIA Alternative Cup Champion P 4/5 C and see what miracles do or don't happen to enable the future.

This summer we'll have our road version SCG 003S available for sale and Magazine testing and which we think at 1180 KG, 800HP, 850 NM's of torque, 900KG of NET downforce and shod with our Road legal Dunlop tires will turn a very nice NS time.

Should you or anyone you know be interested in any of the above let us know.

Should any of you be at a race where we are please say hello.

Best

Jim
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Old 8 Feb 2016, 19:27 (Ref:3613159)   #35
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Great post Jim, good luck with what you're doing. Looking forward to seeing you out at the N24 again.
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Old 8 Feb 2016, 22:33 (Ref:3613212)   #36
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Building your own car, race it at the most daunting track in the world and drive home (or some fancy gala) afterwards! It doesn't get more Le Mans than that you would think?

Keep up the great stuff Jim and we hope to see you racing States side one day too! How about a 'national GT3 homologation' (like Ginetta, Radical, Vertigo and others)?

Edit: Mike Hedlund, are you listening?
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Old 8 Feb 2016, 22:54 (Ref:3613220)   #37
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Interesting that the wec expect 2 or more teams to join p1-L. Courage? Who else?
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 01:36 (Ref:3613253)   #38
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Interesting that the wec expect 2 or more teams to join p1-L. Courage? Who else?
For 2016 afaik Rebellion and Kolles. In 2018 a totally new chassis will be required so that's when it will get expensive. P1 requires continuous development which is very expensive. We still believe that a non hybrid LMP1 could be engineered to be very fast and even challenge for the lead. That remains our dream but that dream needs a huge amount of money which for us means additional customers and sponsors. Our SCG road version will be SVA/TUF Europe legal and legal in Asia and the Middle East and even possibly in the US if someone want's to build one for themselves under US Homebuilt laws but the issue is that even with 10 road car sales a year for several years we can't possibly build enough at a price low enough to Homologate under ACO/IMSA/Blancpain rules and it would take over 150mm euros to build up a company that could produce say 200 a year for five years at a price that makes sense and would return an acceptable profit. We will push on through the Fog...
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 02:42 (Ref:3613267)   #39
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For 2016 afaik Rebellion and Kolles. In 2018 a totally new chassis will be required so that's when it will get expensive. P1 requires continuous development which is very expensive. We still believe that a non hybrid LMP1 could be engineered to be very fast and even challenge for the lead. That remains our dream but that dream needs a huge amount of money which for us means additional customers and sponsors. Our SCG road version will be SVA/TUF Europe legal and legal in Asia and the Middle East and even possibly in the US if someone want's to build one for themselves under US Homebuilt laws but the issue is that even with 10 road car sales a year for several years we can't possibly build enough at a price low enough to Homologate under ACO/IMSA/Blancpain rules and it would take over 150mm euros to build up a company that could produce say 200 a year for five years at a price that makes sense and would return an acceptable profit. We will push on through the Fog...
Constantly changing regulation is killing private entries. Privateers really need stable and consistency from ACO to spread the R&D cost over long period and foster a market for customer/second hand chassis. A rule change sooner than 2020 is killing P1
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 05:23 (Ref:3613292)   #40
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The rules have been constant for 3 seasons now and possibly one more next year. A big change may be harmful, but it seems the new regs won't stray very far from what we have. If you're going to lmp1, you know what it takes to compete. The thing I think would help is slightly more freedom for private teams. A lower weight, drop the fuel flow, more engine freedom etc.
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 09:16 (Ref:3613320)   #41
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Originally Posted by Napolis View Post
Basically we came up with a GT3/GTE car (SCG 003C) that pushed the envelope, is very fast, can be BOP'd fairly and the fans seem to enjoy seeing racing.

The problem remains that as we'll never sell the required 250 cars unless a manufacture takes us over/joint ventures with us, we are not allowed to race at Daytona, Sebring, 24 of Spa, Le Mans, or Bathurst.

We really don't see why they won't let us race " a la Delta Wing" but they won't and that's why so far we've only raced the N24/VLN and this year the 12H of Mugello

We are not an approved constructor for P2 so the only class we could race in at Le Mans in a car we designed, engineered and built is LMP1. The reality of that is daunting. We have sourced a great LMP 1 engine, not our current 003C one, and do feel we could build a very interesting and completive car but the money required for development and two years of racing The WEC and Le Mans with a three car team is about 40mm euro more that we've raised so far. We have room for two customers who'd like to join us on a once in a lifetime adventure and additional sponsors who we feel we could get huge world wide exposure but while hopeful understand the odds.

We will race the 12H of Mugello , VLN 1, 6H 24 qualifying race and the N 24 with Two SCG 003 C's. For the sport of it VLN 1, 6H qualifying, and The N24 with our hybrid FIA Alternative Cup Champion P 4/5 C and see what miracles do or don't happen to enable the future.

This summer we'll have our road version SCG 003S available for sale and Magazine testing and which we think at 1180 KG, 800HP, 850 NM's of torque, 900KG of NET downforce and shod with our Road legal Dunlop tires will turn a very nice NS time.

Should you or anyone you know be interested in any of the above let us know.

Should any of you be at a race where we are please say hello.

Best

Jim
To be blunt, I guess the reason they don't let you race like the DeltaWing is because of who was involved in the DW. With Nissans backing, the ACO managed to get a new manufacturer into LMP1 (not that it worked out very well), so were willing to give the DW a pass. And then IMSA gives it a pass because Don Panoz owns it. Had it been you or I who owned it, it wouldn't get in.

I, as do many of the fans, LOVE the SCG 003 and the P4/5, but the organizers are wanting big manufacturers. To many of us, 1 SCG 003 is more valuable than 3 Nissan LMPs, but that isn't what the headlines will pull in. But I do agree, I don't see why your car cannot be entered into IMSA and Le Mans given the DeltaWing makes it in. Bathurst surprises me given they have the Marc Fords/Mazdas racing in it. Can the SCG 003 not be run nationally, like the Ginettas?

Unfortunately many of us won't be able to buy one of the 250 road cars you need. But if buying the diecasts helps then at least you guys have Spark making them now (BBR was too expensive). I'm sure many of us here have the P4/5 diecasts and will be adding an SCG003 to the collection. Every little helps right?
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 12:42 (Ref:3613354)   #42
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Awesome insight there Napolis

Curious you mention "--- we still believe non hybrid LMP1 car could be engineered ---" when the reports have spoken more on you actually considering hybrid for the proposed LMP1?

Anyhow, so do you think, if the ELMS allowed (privateer) LMP1s again, that you would be able to pull of theoretical budget estimate for that (+ Le Mans) and still have the same ROI as with WEC? Battle for overall wins in regional series and do oneoff fight against the factories at Sarthe. Maybe create customer market.

Though I don't think anything's gonna change in that front - ELMS reallowing anything else than LMP2 as lead class again that is - unless teams start making queries to ACO about it.

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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
Why is a 44 car grid not attractive to fans?

The ELMS can great racing last year and the bigger grid this year should just add to the fun
Because everything is second tier, third tier, full on pro-am, spec, bop, cost cap, freezed. The big feature attractions are missing.

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Old 9 Feb 2016, 14:30 (Ref:3613372)   #43
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Maybe Manor is one of those teams that have said to ACO "I don't know maybe" when they asked, and instead of half-imaginary/half-possible they interpreted it as "booked".

http://www.crash.net/le-mans/news/22...qeC8QFA9f51.99

Quote:
Manor has also not ruled out a step up to the top LMP1 category in future which is currently dominated by hybrid cars from Audi, Toyota and Porsche. The class will adopt a new rulebook in 2017 which could make it more viable for independent teams to compete for race wins.

“2016 is really a learning year, we have a lot to learn in a short time but we intend to be in endurance racing for a long time and win races. LMP1 at the moment spend in the region of what a Formula 1 team spends, I know how incredibly difficult it is to raise that money in Formula 1.

“The LMP1 regulations for 2017 are not done yet so we have not decided what to do for 2017, but we are happy with LMP in general they are great cars, with tremendous downforce and grip, we can't wait to go racing!”
The other teams probably on the line (besides Glickenhaus) are Onroak, which has been going forever and never actually seemingly materializing unless they find that "partner" finally, and Strakka. Though they probably have given up already. I thin SARD has missed the boat already too.

However, Courage says they have something ambitious planned for 2018. Granted which could be anything, but it's not like there are many categories to choose from, especially with LMP2 cashing in with greed
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...he-making.html
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 15:48 (Ref:3613403)   #44
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The question by the ACO was probably disguised as "Would you like to win the lottery?" which led to a firm "Yes!" by all...

Here's the full (?) list of 'potential future P1 entrants':

factory
BMW

Privateers
BR
Courage
Glickenhaus
Greaves?
Manor
Onroak (OAK)
SARD?
Strakka

and FF's 'mystery and possible future employer'.

Feel free to correct/add.
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 15:58 (Ref:3613405)   #45
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factory
BMW
Subaru
Lamborghini*


Privateers
BR
Courage
Glickenhaus
Greaves?
Manor
Onroak (OAK)
SARD?
Strakka
Signatech-Fake-Alpine**

* pre-VW-scandal talks
** but they'll probably continue getting rebadging deals in spec-LMP2 too so "why bother"

But remember,

Last November:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/b...mp1-privateer/
Beaumesnil said a target of 8-10 LMP1 Privateer cars on the grid by 2017-18 is a realistic target, given the current amount of interest.

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Old 9 Feb 2016, 16:11 (Ref:3613408)   #46
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Factory
BMW
Subaru
Lamborghini*

Privateers
BR
Courage
Glickenhaus
Greaves?
Manor
Onroak (OAK)
SARD?
Strakka
Signatech-Fake-Alpine**
Welter Racing????

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/w...-car-for-2014/
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/w...loping-engine/
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...nd-beyond.html
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 16:45 (Ref:3613418)   #47
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
To be blunt, I guess the reason they don't let you race like the DeltaWing is because of who was involved in the DW. With Nissans backing, the ACO managed to get a new manufacturer into LMP1 (not that it worked out very well), so were willing to give the DW a pass. And then IMSA gives it a pass because Don Panoz owns it. Had it been you or I who owned it, it wouldn't get in.

I, as do many of the fans, LOVE the SCG 003 and the P4/5, but the organizers are wanting big manufacturers. To many of us, 1 SCG 003 is more valuable than 3 Nissan LMPs, but that isn't what the headlines will pull in. But I do agree, I don't see why your car cannot be entered into IMSA and Le Mans given the DeltaWing makes it in. Bathurst surprises me given they have the Marc Fords/Mazdas racing in it. Can the SCG 003 not be run nationally, like the Ginettas?

Unfortunately many of us won't be able to buy one of the 250 road cars you need. But if buying the diecasts helps then at least you guys have Spark making them now (BBR was too expensive). I'm sure many of us here have the P4/5 diecasts and will be adding an SCG003 to the collection. Every little helps right?

It does. Well posted. Thanks!
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 16:56 (Ref:3613423)   #48
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
Awesome insight there Napolis

Curious you mention "--- we still believe non hybrid LMP1 car could be engineered ---" when the reports have spoken more on you actually considering hybrid for the proposed LMP1?

Anyhow, so do you think, if the ELMS allowed (privateer) LMP1s again, that you would be able to pull of theoretical budget estimate for that (+ Le Mans) and still have the same ROI as with WEC? Battle for overall wins in regional series and do oneoff fight against the factories at Sarthe. Maybe create customer market.

Though I don't think anything's gonna change in that front - ELMS reallowing anything else than LMP2 as lead class again that is - unless teams start making queries to ACO about it.



Because everything is second tier, third tier, full on pro-am, spec, bop, cost cap, freezed. The big feature attractions are missing.
If we raise enough money to get us to the start line we will begin with a feasibility study. While we are still developing and racing our hybrid car P 4/5 C we are given pause that the huge effort that began with a Superbowl Add ended in tears for a major manufacturer. While we could go hybrid the money need is VERY, VERY unlikely to be raised by a privateer and we do believe under the 2018 rules an LMP1 L would have a fair shot.
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 19:16 (Ref:3613463)   #49
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If we raise enough money to get us to the start line we will begin with a feasibility study. While we are still developing and racing our hybrid car P 4/5 C we are given pause that the huge effort that began with a Superbowl Add ended in tears for a major manufacturer. While we could go hybrid the money need is VERY, VERY unlikely to be raised by a privateer and we do believe under the 2018 rules an LMP1 L would have a fair shot.
Interesting developments ahead then, hopefully. All fingers crossed out for ya guys.
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Old 9 Feb 2016, 21:41 (Ref:3613490)   #50
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Originally Posted by Coach Ep View Post
Keep up the great stuff Jim and we hope to see you racing States side one day too! How about a 'national GT3 homologation' (like Ginetta, Radical, Vertigo and others)?

Edit: Mike Hedlund, are you listening?
Yes, but I don't want to build or maintain a car. I just want to race. :-)

-mike
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