Fed up with LMP1 of late.

[GTfour]

It's been quite a while since I've posted anything here and, although I didn't expect I'd say this, I'm fed up with the current 'top class' at Le Mans.
Yes of course, I went to the Spa 6hrs and Le Mans this year and enjoyed the spectacle enormously.

But...

Then I saw a two ton streetcar near 240mph before the Playstation chicane, easily outrunning the chasing helicopter. This left me in awe.
This left me in awe like I was left in awe when I saw the Toyota GT-One's repeatedly break 220mph during the race in '98 and '99.
I sadly didn't witness this, in '88:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcj9DVAM6eY

This years 24 hours of Le mans showed non of the top class LMP1's crack 200mph.(http://nasportscar.com/2016-le-mans-data-analysis/ )
This disappointed me enormously. Yes, the lap times are stupendous, with the vast amounts of downforce these prototypes now cary. More then an F1 car at Monaco, so I've heard from a source from within the Toyota team.
But that's not what I come to Le Mans for. If I want to see very high downforce race cars, I'll go to any F1 race. I used to go to Le Mans for the extremely high speeds with witch these sportscars thundered along the many long straights of this great track. These days have sadly passed. For serious top speeds nowadays, one has to go to F1 as well(Valterry Bottas, Williams, Baku, 378kph/235mph). With turbocharged 1,6 V6 engines producing well over 800hp, these things cary some serious top end fire.
The current top LMP1's, have to make due with heavily choked combustion engines that produce less then 600hp. Those 400 electric pony's do make them accelerate viciously but they disappear in a few seconds, making the cars struggle to reach anything near a respectable topspeed for a serious Le mans flyer.

Oh, and they're as ugly as a dogs behind. Witch ever way you turn it, these cars are no great lookers. Purposeful yes, to achieve these high downforce numbers of course, mean looking as well. But pretty, no. Not like XJR14's, 787B's, GT-one's, GT1-98's or Bentley's Speed eights.
They do not come close to these other 1000hp hybrid cars of late. The Porsche 918, LaFerrari, McLaren P1 or Koenigsegg Regera. Not to mention this fine project Aston and Red Bull are conjuring up...

I say, end the ever spiraling high cost LMP1 era we have now and stop these FIA neutered so called top class sportscars. Show us what real world high tech ultra cars can do on the hallowed grounds of Le Mans. That's what I'd like to see!

[isynge]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It's been quite a while since I've posted anything here and, although I didn't expect I'd say this, I'm fed up with the current 'top class' at Le Mans.
Yes of course, I went to the Spa 6hrs and Le Mans this year and enjoyed the spectacle enormously.

But...

Then I saw a two ton streetcar near 240mph before the Playstation chicane, easily outrunning the chasing helicopter. This left me in awe.
This left me in awe like I was left in awe when I saw the Toyota GT-One's repeatedly break 220mph during the race in '98 and '99.
I sadly didn't witness this, in '88:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcj9DVAM6eY

This years 24 hours of Le mans showed non of the top class LMP1's crack 200mph.(http://nasportscar.com/2016-le-mans-data-analysis/ )
This disappointed me enormously. Yes, the lap times are stupendous, with the vast amounts of downforce these prototypes now cary. More then an F1 car at Monaco, so I've heard from a source from within the Toyota team.
But that's not what I come to Le Mans for. If I want to see very high downforce race cars, I'll go to any F1 race. I used to go to Le Mans for the extremely high speeds with witch these sportscars thundered along the many long straights of this great track. These days have sadly passed. For serious top speeds nowadays, one has to go to F1 as well(Valterry Bottas, Williams, Baku, 378kph/235mph). With turbocharged 1,6 V6 engines producing well over 800hp, these things cary some serious top end fire.
The current top LMP1's, have to make due with heavily choked combustion engines that produce less then 600hp. Those 400 electric pony's do make them accelerate viciously but they disappear in a few seconds, making the cars struggle to reach anything near a respectable topspeed for a serious Le mans flyer.

Oh, and they're as ugly as a dogs behind. Witch ever way you turn it, these cars are no great lookers. Purposeful yes, to achieve these high downforce numbers of course, mean looking as well. But pretty, no. Not like XJR14's, 787B's, GT-one's, GT1-98's or Bentley's Speed eights.
They do not come close to these other 1000hp hybrid cars of late. The Porsche 918, LaFerrari, McLaren P1 or Koenigsegg Regera. Not to mention this fine project Aston and Red Bull are conjuring up...

I say, end the ever spiraling high cost LMP1 era we have now and stop these FIA neutered so called top class sportscars. Show us what real world high tech ultra cars can do on the hallowed grounds of Le Mans. That's what I'd like to see!

It's a valid point, and today, like in so many ways, reminds me of 1992.

Back then 3.5 litre racing engines and sophisticated/expensive aero combined with economic issues to kill the WSPC and push into a slump. Today, is it the same with hybrids and another aero arms race?

The crumb I took back in the early 1990s was that maybe opening things up to exciting GTs (Venturi, Jaguar XJ220 etc) would save us, and in a lot of ways it did. Back then the way it combined with WSC barchettas and led to the small boom of the 98/99 period worked for me - and maybe we're looking at something similar now?

I've liked the last 10 years of LMP1s, from the whisperingly rapid spectacle of the Peugeots leaving everyone behind in the opening hours of various Le Mans, the noise of the Aston Martins flying formation across the startline, and hybrid acceleration duels of recent years (Porsche v Audi at Silverstone 2015 springs readily to mind), but maybe it is time to begin again.

So - where now for first principles?

Answers on a postcard please.

[Dyson Mazda]

[Gingers4Justice]

This year's Le Mans was my 16th Le Mans and it might just have been the most memorable. I have literally nothing to complain about.

Things change. Le Mans is different to what it used to be, but I fell in love with it because it was magical, it was exciting, and it was quite simply better than anything else.

And it's still all three of those things. The LMP1 cars are one of the reasons why - just a shame there aren't more of them.

[Akrapovic]

If we're focused on top speed then sure, they aren't that fast. If we look at acceleration and speed differences, it's absolutely phenomenal. I absolutely love the current P1 cars. They are just too expensive. If we can now stop pushing for less fuel and just freeze it and try and get the costs down, it'd be brilliant to keep the hybrids. They're so exciting and amazing to watch, especially in traffic.

[Starfish Primer]

"All the past is always better". In 10 years we´ll be saying, 2025 cars aren´t as sexy as the R18, the TS030 or the 919.

In the last 4 years I´ve watched in the WEC absolutely great LMP1 battles, we had Fuji with seconds difference between the Toyota and the Audi, Silverstone last year... For me the LMP1 Hybrid era can look to the eyes to any other endurance racing time.

And on track watch the Audi or the Porsche accelerate when the hybrid power kicks in is porn.

[S griffin]

I agree, it would be good to have more manufacturers in LMP1 to add a bit more variety

[J Jay]

'Member LMGTP?

Ahhh yeah, I 'member. I love LMGTP!

Hey, hey, hey? 'Member Group C?

Now the obvious joke is out of the way, it's not hard to symapthize. Going fast in a straight line has always been a bigger headline-grabber than going fast round corners, even when the latter is far more important for circuit racing. But you can't undo progress - the knowledge has been learnt and it will be used if it helps the cars go faster. Without a radical rethink of the regulations I don't think we're ever returning to the 220+mph days, and even then it wouldn't be long before the engineers got the time back in the corners by sacrificing it down the straights.

Hypercar-based racers at Le Mans would be a fascinating sight, but the nature of those cars would still see budgets skyrocket, for the same reason that the current LMP1s are so expensive (think of the work that would need to be done to make a 919/P1/LaFerrari-derived car last 24 hours). And then the cars would be neutered, and in order to get the performance back the costs would remain high, or more likely, increase.

N.B. Le Mans is a peculiar example, with hybrid output artificially limited around La Sarthe. 210+mph was achieved on a semi-regular basis last year (by Audi, and Toyota?), so when the full beans were allowed so these cars can still shift even with restricted ICEs.

[Akrapovic]

I find it a bit disingenuous to say an LMP is no longer as fun because the top speeds aren't as high and road cars have caught up, when top speeds are only one small part of the performance. Acceleration and cornering are pretty important, and the LMP1 will win on both of those.

We've had GT cars which are restricted down from their road car equivalent, but that doesn't make them less exciting.

[J Jay]

It is disingenuous, but nobody in this thread has suggested otherwise. Even the OP acknowledged the "stupendous" overall speed of the current prototypes. But however a part small top speed plays in overall performance, it is undoubtedly the aspect that gets the most eyeballs, particularly from those who aren't already invested in motorsport.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We've had GT cars which are restricted down from their road car equivalent, but that doesn't make them less exciting.

In my experience it does. I'm sorry I don't have more than anecdotes to back up my point, but when I've brought up GT to non-fans, the "detuning" of the engine has regularly been mentioned as a reason to not bother with GT racing.

[Akrapovic]

I can't agree on either. If top speed is what makes things exciting then there's drag racing. If that's what you're after then there are series that deal with it. There's a lot more to do with the series and the racing in P1 has been better than ever for the last few years.

As for GT Racing, you just need to look at the explosion of Blancpain, Ring 24 and Bathurst to see that people aren't fussed about the fact that almost every car is restricted down. GT Racing is in an all time high, and that's with lower powered cars.

Of course if we're just going for big impressive numbers then 1200hp should make people happy.

[GT6]

i am afraid that the manufactures class that lmp1 has been turned into is always in danger of this happening, highly expensive technically advance cars but if we are now down to just to cars(or teams) then the ACO needs to examine things and see what it needs to do to attract more or how it can make private teams want to enter, other wise the race will suffer.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by GT6

i am afraid that the manufactures class that lmp1 has been turned into is always in danger of this happening, highly expensive technically advance cars but if we are now down to just to cars(or teams) then the ACO needs to examine things and see what it needs to do to attract more or how it can make private teams want to enter, other wise the race will suffer.

I believe the ACO suffers eternally from the Ostrich Syndrome..............and until Armageddon knocks on their palatial corporate office doors, they will continue to not be bothered about privateers, not be bothered how much the racing costs, not be bothered by how many gazillions Euros the Hybrid teams are spending, so long as they all keep spending on the ACO.

Oh, and certainly not be bothered by the opinion of peasant fans who pay to go to the races, as distasteful as to is to take their money, they will

[TF110]

Top speed is down because they need to coast. They start doing it near the speed trap. So they're already slowing down. The timing and scoring data doesn't show the real top speed of these cars. But it isn't as fast as before, definitely. I think that will change if the rules allow for engine efficiency to significantly improve. There's ways to do that like allowing for cylinder deactivation and vvt, and possibly better grades of fuel. Even the 3 ers's could have a big impact. That means less lift and coast and more full throttle, resulting in top speed increases. Then of course aerodynamics will be a really big factor.

[ArnageWRC]

Originally Posted by GT6

i am afraid that the manufactures class that lmp1 has been turned into is always in danger of this happening, highly expensive technically advance cars but if we are now down to just to cars(or teams) then the ACO needs to examine things and see what it needs to do to attract more or how it can make private teams want to enter, other wise the race will suffer.

I feel this is all on the ACO. I know they like the 'road relevance' and future technology; however, this is expensive. So, while the last few years have been seen as a great period - why weren't there more Manufacturers?? Audi, Toyota, Porsche..Nissan blink, and you'd have missed them.

Time for the ACO to take their heads out the sand and be proactive in ensuring Manufacturers can afford to join - as well as enabling Privateers to compete.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If we're focused on top speed then sure, they aren't that fast. If we look at acceleration and speed differences, it's absolutely phenomenal.

Absolutely right. 5 minutes watching these cars exit Arnage proves that. Quite possibly the most mesmerising thing I've ever witnessed in all my years watching motor racing.....

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Absolutely right. 5 minutes watching these cars exit Arnage proves that. Quite possibly the most mesmerising thing I've ever witnessed in all my years watching motor racing.....

Arnage at night, they look like hyperspacing.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by ArnageWRC

I feel this is all on the ACO. I know they like the 'road relevance' and future technology; however, this is expensive. So, while the last few years have been seen as a great period - why weren't there more Manufacturers?? Audi, Toyota, Porsche..Nissan blink, and you'd have missed them.

Time for the ACO to take their heads out the sand and be proactive in ensuring Manufacturers can afford to join - as well as enabling Privateers to compete.

How many do you expect to have?

In F1 there are 4, in WRC 2 + M-Sport private Ford effort, Nascar 3, Indycar 2, top level competitions can only handle a few manufacturers.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by J Jay

'Member LMGTP?

Ahhh yeah, I 'member. I love LMGTP!

Hey, hey, hey? 'Member Group C?

Now the obvious joke is out of the way, it's not hard to symapthize. Going fast in a straight line has always been a bigger headline-grabber than going fast round corners, even when the latter is far more important for circuit racing. But you can't undo progress - the knowledge has been learnt and it will be used if it helps the cars go faster. Without a radical rethink of the regulations I don't think we're ever returning to the 220+mph days, and even then it wouldn't be long before the engineers got the time back in the corners by sacrificing it down the straights.

Hypercar-based racers at Le Mans would be a fascinating sight, but the nature of those cars would still see budgets skyrocket, for the same reason that the current LMP1s are so expensive (think of the work that would need to be done to make a 919/P1/LaFerrari-derived car last 24 hours). And then the cars would be neutered, and in order to get the performance back the costs would remain high, or more likely, increase.

N.B. Le Mans is a peculiar example, with hybrid output artificially limited around La Sarthe. 210+mph was achieved on a semi-regular basis last year (by Audi, and Toyota?), so when the full beans were allowed so these cars can still shift even with restricted ICEs.

I 'member! ROFL!

[MaskedRacer]

First of all just a disclaimer. I am first and foremost a GT fan. But I do admire good looking prototypes but they seem to be few and far between.

I have lost a lot of interest in the WEC this year. The 2016 Audi R18 are hideously ugly. (after the good looking 2015 version). The Porsche 919 looks uninspiring. And I even did not like the Toyota switching from blue to red.

Audi leaves actually makes things a tad more interesting I think. And with Porsche coming back to GTE Pro that gives 2017 a lot of potential for me. Even to the point where if Porsches and Toyotas have problems in the same race the LMP2 winner could compete for overall.

[TF110]

The lmp1 cars have so much more pace than lmp2 they could probably spend a half hour in the garage and still win.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

The lmp1 cars have so much more pace than lmp2 they could probably spend a half hour in the garage and still win.

That's an interesting thought, so I went and found numbers!

2016 Le Mans

LMP1 - 384 laps
LMP2 - 357 laps

27 x 3.5 minutes (for easy maths) = 94.5 minutes

So at Le Mans, the LMP1s were an hour and a half ahead of the LMP2s.

[J Jay]

That's bigger than I thought, I assumed it was closer to an hour. So let's take it a bit further and assume next year's LMP2 will be 5s/lap faster overall (another lazy assumption if nobody minds).

LMP2 2016 average lap - 4:02
LMP2 2017 average lap - 3:57

Which would have led to 364(.5) laps in this year's race, and a 70 minute gap to the winning car. So even if LMP1 isn't faster next year LMP2 will still be a long way behind, and the only overall podium chance would be for two factory cars to suffer major problems.

[LC2guy]

Originally Posted by J Jay

the only overall podium chance would be for two factory cars to suffer major problems.

With Audi gone, I'd imagine the ACO are on the phone asking Porsche & Toyota to enter 3 each !!! Plenty of Drivers available, and VAG entered 4 this year, so dropping to 3 for the big one shouldn't be a stretch, and Toyota after this years heartbreak may now look at 3 for 2017. Regarding LMP1 in general, to me they are awesome, but are too expensive and there aren't enough of them to maintain a healthy series. Go back to basics, base the chassis rules on LMP2 but allow any engine that the manufacturer wants, unrestricted. Oh, wait .....

[Gingers4Justice]

I don't understand the fascination with top speed - maybe it's the "Top Gear" affect, where supercars are judged on their top speed.

As a paying spectator, I'd much rather see cars delivering their performance around the bits I can see, rather than the bits I can't.

I watched the 1999 Le Mans review for the first time in years and years last week, and it wasn't anywhere near as good as I remember it, and it's because most of the cars look pretty slow around the corners in comparison to now - it almost looked like they were trying to park on the Mulsanne chicane.

Obviously, those fire-breathing monsters were spectacular at the time and I'd still pay a lot of money to see them in historics. But I'm not really sure how just because the GT cars of the 1990s were a bit faster for the last 10% of the Mulsanne straight, they were somehow better to watch.