Daytona Prototypes

[IanGrohse]

Im not sure on the actual demensions of the roof dome, but thats my biggest problem with them aesteticly......its that silly looking roof. I mean, I like the look of GTP cars certaily more than LMP/SRP cars....but not in the mannor it is being done in the DSP cars. Its so darn big!!! And frankly it doesnt look as sturdy as it could be from teh chassis pictures I have seen....the longer you stretch a frame member without a joint the weaker it is.

But, I DO NOT mind the fact that it will be either steel space frame or aluminum monoque. I DO mind the HOW MUCH they restrict the diversity in build method. Had they said, "Cars have to be steel space frame or aluminum monoque." and left it at that I would be happy.
I dont like the aerodynamic restictions....such as the one saying that there can not be a vent/opening within 20cm of the bottom on the sides of the car.

Some are super ugly. The Crawford is decent looking, and so is the pichio(though it looked much better in renderings) Fabcars is just horrid to look at.

I dont mind cost cutting methods, but I think they could have achieved that through better methods. I dont mind not allowing CF monocoques, but I do mind the level of scrutiny that they place on the chassis.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by IanGrohse
Im not sure on the actual demensions of the roof dome, but thats my biggest problem with them aesteticly......its that silly looking roof.

The roof would make sense under an aspect of increased safety - GA had that fatal accident last year which may have played a role in their decisionmaking. But, what good is the lofty roof with plenty of headroom if the footbox is still about as big (or, narrow) as on an LMP. One Multimatic team member stated that the legroom in the DSP was about the same as in the Panoz 07, if that.

[IanGrohse]

My question is HOW lofty the rollover structure is....and from looking at pictures it looks to have bent tubing that stretches VERY long distances in between joints, which to me doesnt seem ideal. Im sure it will be fine.....but it just seems like complete overkill, especially when looking at a driver sitting the bare chassis.

[rustyfan]

*puts on firesuit*

I'm going to go against most opinions expressed in this thread and say that I just plain love the new cars. Shame I won't get to see it on TV here in Sweden, but still, the pictures I've seen of the cars have left me drooling.

Then again, I'm biased as I utterly hate all open-cockpit prototypes - 95% of them are b*tt-ugly and all of them aren't nearly as safe in flips as the covered ones are.

In the last two years alone we lost Jeff Clinton (collapsing roll-bar that nearly decapitated him in the process of killing him when he flipped into the gravel at Homestead) and Michele Alboreto (collapsing roll-hoop as the car smashed down onto the ground upside down after going airborne due to a puncture, a type of hit covered sports-cars have proven to stand up against numerous times) due to the use of open sportscars, and if I got to decide, they'd be banned ASAP.

Then again, that's just my opinion of course.

[IanGrohse]

Well....I mean, I can go ahead and point out half a dozen drivers this year killed in closed cars though as well(none in the feilds we are talking about), killed in rollover accidents.....

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
How about - are you sitting comfortably? - fuel injection??

Oh, I've got nothing against EFI... Dual four-barrels on a high-rise manifold are just sort of a classic hot-rod setup.

[Lee Janotta]

Bleh... _Much_ better photo... 454 Chevy.

http://www.whatsforlaunch.com/images2/221p/221-205.jpg

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by IanGrohse
Well....I mean, I can go ahead and point out half a dozen drivers this year killed in closed cars though as well(none in the feilds we are talking about), killed in rollover accidents.....

Really? I haven't read about a single driver fatality in one of the bigger championships (where the safety standards are under much higher scrutiny than in the minor-league club and local grassroots championships), or in many of the smaller ones, where the driver was killed simply because he flipped, so I would be interested to hear of your list.

Personally I can't recall any racing fatalities due to a rollover accident alone, although I'm not sure about the crash that killed sports-car legend Bob Akin when he was testing a 1988 Nissan GTP ZX-Turbo at Road America. Although, I doubt he flipped given the terrible injuries he suffered in that crash.

As for survivors, if you ask Eric van der Poole and Mark Webber I think they are VERY grateful today that they were sitting in closed-cockpit cars at the time of their massive accidents (Poole during testing at Paul Ricard and Webber during practice at Le Mans), as they both ended up upsidedown at very high speed.

Then again, Claude Gou survived his massive warmup crash at Lime Rock back in 1983 driving an open Lola T333CS Can-Am car where he somersaulted into the woods. Difference being that he never got upside down - the car turned sideways after going airborne and before it started to somersault, which most likely saved his life.

[RacingManiac]

Bill Aubelen.....survivor of open car flip....PLM 2000

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by RacingManiac
Bill Aubelen.....survivor of open car flip....PLM 2000

Not sure how his flip (which I have seen the video of btw) relates to this as he did a full flip and landed on his wheels after the hump at Road Atlanta, much like Yannick Dalmas did in his Porsche the year before.

[IanGrohse]

Well, your right, I wasnt refering to any major series......

But of course you can point out a couple of deaths....But remember.....The number open sports cars in teh world is about 1/100000 of the number of forumla style cars. I mean, there is an inumerable number of open forumla cars, and undoubtedly there are inumberable numbers of flips.........And to look at forumla one/CART, etc, and the speeds at which their rollover structures are tested certainly shows that while there ARE certainly flukes, the safety of well prepared single rollover stuctures is certainly there.

Well, that being said, I agree, I think closed top cars are somewhat safer, and frankly I like them better......However, closed top doesnt equal to overal apeal for me. And these DSP just seem lame to me.....I mean, the very shape of the cockput speaks to their lack of uniqness.....almost flat on the sides(squared off) HUGE dome. I mean, the differnce between a 787B, GT1, 905, Bently EXspeed, and CLR are SUSPSTANTIAL.....and there certainly at least APEARS to be more of an empahsis on aerodynamics.....And I have NO doubt that all of these cars have PERFECTLY safe structures.....and they didnt have to be the size of the capital dome.......

Also.....why RESTRICT the amount of downforce these cars can have....I mean, sure, it will reduce overall speed.....but it would certainly reduce overall stability and ease of driving. And they are certainly doing that by disallowing places to utilise front diffusers and diffuser exits.

[rustyfan]

Again straying somewhat away from the issue (as formula-type cars and sportscars aren't really a matter of comparison).

Yes, the number of Formula-type cars largely outnumber the number of sports-cars racing throughout the world, but they are also very different in several key aspects, with the most important being that formula-style cars don't "catch" the wind in the same way the sports-cars, with their big flat bottoms, do. Not to mention they rarely flip over even when they actually do go airborne (in nearly all cases due to wheel-to-wheel contact), as they tend to reach a 90-degree angle before landing back down onto their wheels instead.

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by IanGrohse
Well, your right, I wasnt refering to any major series......

By the way, as mentioned before, I'd be interested in hearing what those fatalities would be. I know that there have been several tragic stock-car fatalities on the lower levels (including the Featherlite Series), club-racing fatalities (both in the US and overseas in Europe) and other various championships (including a championship for jet powered dragsters), but I can't recall one single fatality due to just a flip of the car - most, if not all (that I have read about, which, unfortunately are quite a few this year) - have been due to injuries suffered as the drivers crashed into solid stationary objects or into other cars.

Then again, now that I think about it, there was a fatality that happened as the car flipped, down in Australia if I remember correctly. But on the other hand, the driver died because he was ejected from his old nostalgic Formula 1 (or something of the sort) car, the type of car that lacks a roll-bar altogether which the enthusiast racers prefer to drive without wearing a seat belt, so I'm not sure if that counts either.

[IanGrohse]

Okay.....I conceed....the rollover accident deaths arent there....
But the point was to give an idea of the relation of racing deaths compared to the risk of racing in gerneral......You point out two driver deaths...While every fatality is significant and of course is worthy of concern....2 driver deaths in two years is hardly a significant number in teh scheme of TOTALLY radifying the entire design of a racing series to completely differnt cars.

And the Formula car comparison is absolutly aplicable....The flips that have occured in top level open wheel racing have been at significant speeds, with significant force.....Even if seeming slow by comparison to their overal speed, the flips in Formula One the past few years have been VERY dramatic....and there is almost never an incident with injury.
Like I said before, I agree that closed cockpit cars would be safer in a rollover....Neverless, the death toll doesnt seem significantly high to me in open top sportscars, not enough to warent outlawing of open top cars.

Another point is.......That IF closed top cars are the solution to danger problems....Then the DSPs arent some kind of wonderful solution. A closed top car could be made with vastly less surface area, windsheild rake, and overall rustic symplicity, And still provide the safety you are looking for. My argument is NOT against closed top prototypes....Because in fact I like those better. But its against THESE closed top prototypes. The cockpit is excessivly large...the shape of the dome is greatly restricted to one kind of formula, there is no venting aloud on the sides of the car.....
http://www.grand-am.com/news/news445.html
To compare that to a low, sleek, sexy Toyota GT1, or Mercadees CLR......And the Carbon Fiber chassis isnt what makes the differnce there. Its just symply that the rules restrictions on the DSP UNNESSISARILY make the cars boring, and really clunky looking. I mean, an 80s GTP car looks more advanced than these things.

Remember, one of the MAIN reasons for going to a closed top car was fan apeal!!! Because closed top protos apeal to fans more. Yet, they restrict the cars to this general profile that is just such a turn off, and OBVIOUSLY has many fans turned off.