[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[gwyllion]

Just as a reminder. The Magneti Marelli MGU-H is capable of 90 kW at 120 000 rpm. See http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/217...lla-di-marelli

[Mike E]

So presumably this car will be fairly quiet with two turbines in the exhaust system harvesting otherwise 'wasted' energy.

[jimclark]

Interestinger and more interestinger....

[rubberduck]

Indeed, it is!

[Richard C]

I am assuming that the dual turbines is about optimization. That while a single turbine could do it all, it likely has some level of compromise. For example, I assume you are either harvesting energy, or using the motor to spin up the turbine to reduce lag. But you can't do both at the same time. And while most probably consider the two modes of operation mutually exclusive, I suspect that at times there is room for overlap (maybe a large amount of overlap!?) Additionally it allows each turbine to be optimized to it's specific tasks. I assume Porsche has decided that the gains outweigh the extra complexity.

If anything, I am fascinated by the engineering and how the teams (particularly) Porsche are pushing the envelope.

Richard

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If anything, I am fascinated by the engineering and how the teams (particularly) Porsche are pushing the envelope.

Richard

And I am extremely jealous of those across the pond that they are getting technology whilst we git crapola....aaaahhh, the ignorant American masses...

(pssssttt...'taking the once great US of A right down the tubes, too)

[Richard C]

After my post above, I had another thought. I was assuming above, that the MGU is being split in two. That a "motor" would be on one turbine and would be used to spin the turbine up to speed for lag reduction and that the "generator" would be on the second turbine. Can the MGU be split like that across two turbines/two shafts that operate at different RPM?

The other alternative (if you follow the Autosport article to the letter) is that he MGU is on the second turbine and that the primary turbine is not "mechanically" connected to the MGU in any way? And that the secondary turbine in "motor" mode somehow assists the spin up of the primary turbine (reduction in back pressure or creation of vacuum on the outlet side of the primary turbine?)

Richard

[Richard C]

Sorry for post after post. My mind is cranking today.

Two additional thoughts...

First is the potential for syncing of turbines (i.e. automatic transmission torque converter style). I find this unlikely.

Second, is there a chance that MGU might be connected to one (or two) turbines via electronically controlled and/or magnetic clutches. For example on the "motor" side, the MGU might spin up the turbine for anti-lag, and then once the engine is on full boost, the turbine is disengaged (to reduce friction/load on the turbine when under boost). In a two turbine system, but only a single MGU, I assume you could engage either or both turbines at any time. Rev matching via MGU could be accomplished prior to clutch engagement. This could be more likely if the MGU is to be a "single unit" (i.e. one shaft for the motor/generator).

Thoughts?

Richard

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Sorry for post after post. My mind is cranking today.

Two additional thoughts...

First is the potential for syncing of turbines (i.e. automatic transmission torque converter style). I find this unlikely.

Second, is there a chance that MGU might be connected to one (or two) turbines via electronically controlled and/or magnetic clutches. For example on the "motor" side, the MGU might spin up the turbine for anti-lag, and then once the engine is on full boost, the turbine is disengaged (to reduce friction/load on the turbine when under boost). In a two turbine system, but only a single MGU, I assume you could engage either or both turbines at any time. Rev matching via MGU could be accomplished prior to clutch engagement. This could be more likely if the MGU is to be a "single unit" (i.e. one shaft for the motor/generator).

Thoughts?

Richard

All this "turbine" talk...can't we once again allow.......aaaahhhhh, never mind....

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...b_1732504c.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...nds/img467.jpg

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/image...2011/25991.jpg

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Autosport report further details about the Porsche 919 Hybrid.

I note the following interesting pieces of information:

This last bit is somewhat surprising as this would suggest that two turbines are located in the exhaust system, one for the turbocharger and a another one for the ERS-H.

So this is a confirmation of what was mentioned earlier in http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/mo...che-919-hybrid

The "Abgasenergierueckgewinnung" (AER) is a electric generator only. It does not act as an electric motor and can not be used spin up the turbo (reducing turbo lag).

[Spyderman]

Porsche testing at Bahrain.

http://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/un...d_3622684.html

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Porsche testing at Bahrain.

http://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/un...d_3622684.html

Lapping ten seconds slower than 2013-spec LMP1s apparently:

Der Sekundenzeiger springt um. Rund 1,53 Minuten hat Mark Webber in seinem wild beklebten Porsche 919 Hybrid gerade für eine Umrundung der Rennstrecke von Bahrain benötigt. Beim offiziellen Rennen im vergangenen Jahr donnerten die Spitzenpiloten mit ihren LMP1-Boliden rund zehn Sekunden schneller über die Start-und-Zielgerade. Es gibt also viel zu tun für das neu formierte Prototypen-Team von Porsche, das in der Königsklasse von Le Mans bereits bei der Erstauflage nach dem Sieg im Jahre 1998 wieder um den Sieg mitfahren soll.

[Spyderman]

Yes, that caught my eye too. We don't know of course, what it was that they were working on when that particular time was set, but it may be indicative of things to come.

BTW - Over at Sky Sports, they have the Bahrain Track record at 1:58.287.

Sorry! - Sky must have this wrong!!

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

BTW - Over at Sky Sports, they have the Bahrain Track record at 1:58.287.

Sorry! - Sky must have this wrong!!

Remember there are two layouts to the circuit.

[Spyderman]

They have this posted on the live comments feed from the Bahrain F1 test, so I assume it refers to the layout that the F1 cars use. The cars are doing 1:40's in testing.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Remember there are two layouts to the circuit.

Actually there are more than 2 layout and a dragstrip too. The 2 main are GP and endurance. F1 like WEC, usually uses GP layout, only in 2010 has been used the endurance layout for the F1 grand prix (pole position 1.54.1). Is hard to think that the 919 hybrid was testing in the endurance layout, being also 1 second faster than an F1, so according to this revelation, the sad truth is that for now the 919 hybrid is 10 second slower than the 2013 TS030. Anyway, 2013 lmp2 pole was 1.50.9, it is insane to think 2014 lmp1 will be slower than lmp2, so let's say that porsche didn't show yet all the 919 got.

[Spyderman]

....We hope.

[gustavobamba]

Without knowing the real layout they use, we can only speculate.

They could be testing the engine without the hybrid power train to maximize the performance of the V4!!!!

10 secons slower than TS 030 is unrealistic IMHO.

They will need 2 years to match Toyota and Audi but 10 seconds away with the testing they already done, I don´t buy it…

After all, they are going to "8 Mj" hybrid system… maybe Audi will go that route to!!!

Did any one know when it will be the official presentation?? Final livery and other stuff´s???

[alless]

Well 5cm each tire is smaller what should make alot of diferente in grip could be posibile on track like this with 10sec.

There are few things that can be on track like that to affecting the lap time- how much dirt was on track, what setup they used and how much they really pushed the car...

On some tracks where grip is needed lap times can be far slower. You might get 5sec or less slower laps on lemans but you might get 10 sec slower laps on tracks like spa or bahrain becase fast corner speeds are reduced.

Overall its better to wait until cars hit a track at once and when they are really ready for race.

[carbon_titanium]

I have no doubt that porsche tested in the GP layout, if a 2010 F1 could not run faster than 1.54 in the endurance layout, how could be able to do it a 2014 lmp1?
We can speculate that porsche was testing the car without the aim to reach the maximum performance, is impossible that the 919 can't do better than a 2013 oreca 03 nissan!
8MJ can be a risky move, because 8MJ means also to have the most restrictive fuel flows. At le mans you can use the whole 8MJ per lap, but in other tracks porsche will have a less powerfull car (because of fuel flows) without being able to use 8MJ per lap. The same is for Toyota and Audi.

[Simmi]

I genuinely wouldn't place any importance on the times someone supposedly gave from the track. So many possible factors it's not even worth it.

[TF110]

Plenty of layouts there, check them out on this track map-



I wouldnt doubt there is a typo and they were doing 1:43's not 1:53's. Or they aren't running fast as possible or its fabricated.

[jimclark]

Nice. What's your source of the circuit images? Thanks.
Many of my circuit sites are gone....

[wolfhound]

Here are the coordinates in Google maps

26.030525,50.511189

You should be able to see all the circuit combinations from there.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Nice. What's your source of the circuit images? Thanks.
Many of my circuit sites are gone....

I just did a google image search. I knew the image I was looking for and thankfully it still exists!