LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

Cost is only part of the issue. What IMSA needs, is to build a series popular enough, that the higher costs are justified. Sports car fans, love Awesome and advanced prototypes, where the rules allow innovation and technological diversity. [...] If the fans are not enthusiastic about the series, no amount of cost cutting will be sufficient.

On the other hand, even the amount of enthusiastic fans ALMS created wasn't enough to keep the series alive - and privateers are not interested in that type of cars either at least not in sufficient numbers for a healthy field.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

Cost is only part of the issue. What IMSA needs, is to build a series popular enough, that the higher costs are justified. Sports car fans, love Awesome and advanced prototypes, where the rules allow innovation and technological diversity. A set of prototype regs, where the cars are all virtually the same, due to restrictive rules and spec parts, is a recipe for disaster. If the fans are not enthusiastic about the series, no amount of cost cutting will be sufficient.

That's all good and well but if the teams cannot afford to go racing in the series in the first place there'll be hardly anything for those fans to watch don't you think?

Rules with more spec parts might hurt the hardcore fans but will not kill the racing. I'm aware that the majority of the (hardcore) fans would like to see a more technology driven rule set, however, the financial scale of things mean that that might be too much to chew for (quite) some entrants - unless they get help from manufacturers like GM and Ford or life support from the sanctioning body itself (NOT to be desired imo). BoP/AoP'ing all the different chassis/bodywork combinations after taking them to the wind tunnel will do however and unfortunately this is where IMSA will most likely separate ways with the ACO on the new P2 rules and show their Nascar colors...

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

BoP/AoP'ing all the different chassis/bodywork combinations after taking them to the wind tunnel will do however and unfortunately this is where IMSA will most likely separate ways with the ACO on the new P2 rules and show their Nascar colors...

Good point. Let's say IMSA and ACO agree to have the exact same technical regs regarding car construction, it is likely that each series would have their own BOP.

I'm interested to see how the ACO handles all the new P2 machinery this upcoming season. They have had no need to do in season BOP P2 in the recent past, and all the cars/engines were on relatively equal footing. With the Dome, HPD, and Oreca joining the party there is a chance these cars have different performance envelopes and somebody could have an advantage. I wonder how ACO/FIA responds?

[Coach Ep]

Has the ACO done BoP before the season?

Best thing is just to come up with a steady set of rules and let the designers have a go at it. That doesn't exclude more spec. parts imo.

[Deleted]

Regs say that they can performance balance them pretty heavily, almost to the GTE level but not quite, however there's not been single BoP tweak in ACO P2 for couple of years now (nothing officially documented by FIA anyway). The last I know of is the HPD engine restrictor break in 2011-2012? But I don't know the specs of the new coupes - except the IMSA ones - because as I said they haven't published those documents in ages. So likely nothing done

With the cost cap & non development (bar EVO) & slightly more spec than in previous generation the likelihood of one chassis overpowering another has decreased though

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

That's all good and well but if the teams cannot afford to go racing in the series in the first place there'll be hardly anything for those fans to watch don't you think?

Rules with more spec parts might hurt the hardcore fans but will not kill the racing. I'm aware that the majority of the (hardcore) fans would like to see a more technology driven rule set, however, the financial scale of things mean that that might be too much to chew for (quite) some entrants - unless they get help from manufacturers like GM and Ford or life support from the sanctioning body itself (NOT to be desired imo). BoP/AoP'ing all the different chassis/bodywork combinations after taking them to the wind tunnel will do however and unfortunately this is where IMSA will most likely separate ways with the ACO on the new P2 rules and show their Nascar colors...

I'm aware that a compromise between low-cost and Awesome, is needed.
Pretty much, no privateer teams are able to fund a full on LMP1 program.
I think that the current LMP2 regs, do a good job of retaining some of the cool factor, while lowering the cost. However restricting the class any further would be a disaster.
Also, as Gil De Ferran described in the Racer article, spec does not always equal low cost. Cost is driven more by the desire to succeed, rather than by rules.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Pandemonium

IMSA should STFU and listen to the ACO. They are so useless, they have no clue what they are doing.

indeed. Actually they should go their own way, and invent DP gen (x+1) or whatever.

"well yeah, DP is crap and old and whatever and we need something fresh... so if we could just put on some cool manufacturer specific bodywork on p2 cars, have a lot of common elements so they look the same and make them cheap that would be cool but dont call them DP" - ****!ng *******s at IMSA. This whole merger of regs is a disaster. And the timing is the worst: new cars are appearing from almost every major lmp2 manufacturer. But I guess the dumbest of all is the ACO. Why merge if the Ams will build different cars anyway???? What do Zytek/Gibson Technology, Onroak, Wirth, BR Engineering etc. say about all this? And the p2 teams?

[lms]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

I think that the current LMP2 regs, do a good job of retaining some of the cool factor, while lowering the cost. However restricting the class any further would be a disaster.

That!

[lms]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Call the cars by their engines but let the chassis' as they are. In full ACO LMP2 spec that is, maybe sped up but otherwise intact.

amen.

[TF110]

More bs to worry about. Egos at work here on both sides. They dont need manufacturer specific bodywork in lmp2. Its gone on for a while now without it. TUSC just want a cheap way to promote Chevy and Ford 'prototypes' (who probably are all for it). Its just like Nascar. If they want brand recognition in a faster, near-spec package, do something like GT500. At least theyre fast and have development from manufacturers. Leave lmp2 as it is and make it a set price. If manufacturers want in, they should cost more or have to run heavier. Sorta like p1 and p1-h. Say 900kg for a small outfit and 950kg for an oak, hpd, ford etc. Why is it so difficult for them to get what fans want? If they wanted Nascar, theyd go see Nascar (but theyre leaving that series too!).

[Deleted]

If Grand-Am in over ten year period never listened what fans said about their slow and boring spec cars, what are the chances they start listening now. The only thing they actually did (sort of) fix was between DPG2 and DPG3 in the cosmetic surgery department, but they do those sort of generation adjustments in stock cars too so that wasn't really paying attention to anything. Same with speeding up for USCC, that was mandatory in order to continue to be overall winners. They will just see LMP2 of the future as same thing, continuation of formula they think is the best for 'close racing with manufacturer branding'. Without caring what people think.

The ACO connection / global formula is what the remains of ALMS staff will try to priorize in their PR speeches of course but that's half the truth

[Mechanic Z]

This is probably pertinent to this thread.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...ock-notes.html

Paddock sources are suggesting that the DP owners are again putting pressure on IMSA to accommodate their cars when the regulations change in 2017. The balance between relevance of a new set of regulations beyond North America and an IMSA aspiration for manufacturer influenced and brand specific bodywork and the commercial imperatives for what looks set to be the majority of the full season Prototype field looks set to be one of the next major regulatory challenges.

This says a lot, about a lot.

Wait until 2017-it'll all be better then. *eyeroll*

[MagVanisher]

While Chip Ganassi will be fielding a GTE version of Ford GT in the future (leaving behind the Prototype class), there's no way those DP owners would put their prototypes (even P2 cars with GM bodywork in 2017 should it happen) in Le Mans.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

This is probably pertinent to this thread.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...ock-notes.html

This says a lot, about a lot.

Wait until 2017-it'll all be better then. *eyeroll*

That would be unfortunate, unless they grandfathered the old DP's in to the new regs with a significant handycap. Racer.com also had this to say:

I happened to wander out of the media center to get a bottle of water and came across a certain TUDOR Championship team owner by the name of Wayne Taylor with an invite to compete at Le Mans this year sitting with the delightful Hugues de Chaunac and two other representatives from ORECA... With a new P2 coupe set to break cover in the next few weeks, WTR could have some interesting options to explore with the ORECA 05.

Would be great to the the WTR boys in a new Oreca at Le Mans.

[Deleted]

I've always been saying that whatever happens in 2017, DPs will still be there in presence in some form or another (and not talking about the P2 body kit nonsense legacy). Them crying for saving their dino mobiles is hardly surprising, the only thing that actually was not expected was Mike Shank not being one of those people! But 2018 should be the one marked in the calendar

As for WTR at LM with Oreca coupe... yes please make that happen

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Chiana

As for WTR at LM with Oreca coupe... yes please make that happen

I would like that to happen, unless WTR have installed a Chevrolet engine... Either Ford or Toyota would be okay for the Oreca prototype!

[Rodger Davies]

That'd be great to have a P2 with a Chevrolet engine! Won't happen obviously, but why wouldn't you want that?

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

While Chip Ganassi will be fielding a GTE version of Ford GT in the future (leaving behind the Prototype class), there's no way those DP owners would put their prototypes (even P2 cars with GM bodywork in 2017 should it happen) in Le Mans.

The problem is that if Wayne Taylor switches to a P2 then the only cars left are the NASCAR-funded cars from Action Express and Spirit of Daytona.

Of course, when the new DPs came out in 2012 they let the old ones race too. They were just BoP'd into oblivion. I would expect that to happen again. Sure, you can race that old POS DP, but the LMPCs will be beating you.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

I would like that to happen, unless WTR have installed a Chevrolet engine... Either Ford or Toyota would be okay for the Oreca prototype!

Why no to GM?

As for Toyota, SARD is/was planning to bring rebranded Toyota engine into P2, so having real Toyota and fake Toyota in the class would be rather hilarious...

But I'm sure if this WTR+Oreca thing materialises, it's gonna be something usual like Judd-BMW or Nissan or whatever. There's no real reason for them to get fancy, they're not there trying to marketize anything to anyone, certainly not at Le Mans

[MagVanisher]

If Wayne Taylor Racing got an Oreca prototype coupe and a Chevrolet engine, I'm sure that GM would either tell them to go back on their old DP car or make some Corvette-esque panels for the Oreca car which would not happen!

And you're right about having a Judd (BMW) or Nissan engine onto their new P2 car should it happen.

[Deleted]

Maybe if they were bringing this hypotetical Oreca and even more hypotetical engine to America, but I don't think GM cares what they do at Le Mans only. I suspect it's probably gonna be some collaboration with existing European team anyway, if the Oreca rumors/deals are true in the first place

[TRspitfirefan]

discussion continued from Rolex thread.

Originally Posted by Louie Loper

And engines, I would be okay with all this. Doesn't LMP2 already have a common tub ruleset?

Current LMP2 rules have rules regarding dimensions etc. similar to LMP1.
The concern with 2017, is the potential that the new P2 regs could mandate a totally spec one/design tub, as well as many suspension bits, cooling systems, wings/ aero etc.
The current regs still allow alot of freedom, as illustrated by the drastic differences between the Ligier and the HPD chassis.

[MagVanisher]

That sounds like LMP3 to me. Anyway, I'm hoping that an LMP1 chassis tub can be used in LMP2 come 2017...

[TRspitfirefan]

The good news is nothing is official yet.
Hopefully the final 2017 P2 is not as bad as currently rumored.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

discussion continued from Rolex thread.

Current LMP2 rules have rules regarding dimensions etc. similar to LMP1.
The concern with 2017, is the potential that the new P2 regs could mandate a totally spec one/design tub, as well as many suspension bits, cooling systems, wings/ aero etc.
The current regs still allow alot of freedom, as illustrated by the drastic differences between the Ligier and the HPD chassis.

The guy on the RLM broadcast said "common tub rules" , right? I read that as shared tub but diverging bodywork rules between ACO-P2 and IMSA's new P-car.

From the Rolex race thread:

In contrast to WEC and ELMS, IMSA could allow factory teams in LMP2.

Maybe... though if you did that, they might push for designing their own chassis from the ground up rather than using outside suppliers, and if GM or Ford would really put their mind to that, I'm pretty sure they'd leave the boutique builders in the dust like it wouldn't be even funny even on just 10% of a proper P1 budget.