Porsche 997 GT3 R

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Dario911

It should be very interesting compare Porsche 911 GT3 RSR and Ferrari F430 GTC prices. I suppose you would address your disappointment on Ferrari, more than on Porsche...
Porsche is cheaper than Ferrari, and italian manufacturer has helped costs escalation.
I think you should meditate about this.

This is not a Ferrari vs Porsche issue.

The same principle that I'm concerned about applies equally to Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and others - rapid development in a performance balanced series is ultimately going to be destructive.

Worse still there have been too many instances, particularly in GT3, of buyers of evolutions of existing machinery effectively doing the development for the manufacturers.

A lot of people have paid a lot of money for cars that are effectively obsolete within two years and there is not a bottomless pit of individuals prepared to soak up that level of loss - particularly not in this climate.

It's a nice car, no doubt about that - but it's part of a troubling trend and the reality is that national GT racing grids of late are beginning to prove my point.

[FIRE]

Why do they not freeze the series? If a manufacturer wants to enter a car it has to be 3 or 4 years the same car without (major) updates. If a car gets less competitive against newer cars from other manufacturers they can tweak the performance balancing.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Why do they not freeze the series? If a manufacturer wants to enter a car it has to be 3 or 4 years the same car without (major) updates. If a car gets less competitive against newer cars from other manufacturers they can tweak the performance balancing.

There will always be controversy about that as performance balancing will always depend to a certain degree on the tracks used, and late-comers will probably always have an edge over the teams that were in the series from the beginning (cf. Riley in Grand Am). If you wanna do it right, start with a fixed number of manufacturers and cars and don't allow any updates or anyone new into the series afterwards. GT3 had enough manufacturers when they started, technically there was no reason to allow Matech or Audi into the series with their über-cars.

[cjent]

Oh, my...................................

[Mike Sweeney]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Worse still there have been too many instances, particularly in GT3, of buyers of evolutions of existing machinery effectively doing the development for the manufacturers.

A lot of people have paid a lot of money for cars that are effectively obsolete within two years and there is not a bottomless pit of individuals prepared to soak up that level of loss - particularly not in this climate.

Agree with this sentiment. However the clock ticks in one direction only, and looking back at the troubles GT3 made/overcame is just a huge can of worms and not very productive. Ascari, Matech, and to some extent Morgan all are questionable as to their products' legitimacy. Mosler appear to have been the scapegoat for all of them...etc etc.

Surely the best way forward is for some stability; at the next BOP tests, set out equalisation and mandate it for, say 3 or 4 years as suggested herein earlier. Fix a cut-off date of perhaps 2008, and anything that was in then can stay until the end of 2012 - with no additions to the grid, and no evolutions. SRO/FIA know how to balance the cars using weight/ride height/tyre compounds/restrictos so it should be relatively feasible to peg the (consistently) fastest cars back.

Then we could avoid having half-arsed upgrades/evos at huge expense every five minutes.

Back on topic, and with Porsche hat on...car looks everything the rumours suggested it would be...bring on 2010

[Félix]

Evolutions and wild development should be aimed at "open" championships and categories where savage competition is half expected (GT2), not at racing where manufacturers are not supposed to be involved, where privateers foot the bills and drive the cars and especially not at a category that is the basis for national championships across Europe.

Said differently: if you want to build a super-expensive 911 with uber-widebody, the latest trick gearbox that was introduced in a prototype and in the works RSRs 2-3 years ago, and expected production numbers in the single digits, GT3 is NOT the series to enter it! But Porsche is powerful and Ratel is nice, so yeah, sure, come ruin our championship... it will be fun for a next few years before it implodes.

They had manufacturer involvement, they should simply have set a limit on how much a car's price can inflate: cars under 100,000 Euros like an R8 should NOT be allowed to cost 300,000 Euros... just like a 300,000 Euro 911 is not right for GT3! Take this money to GT2 or GT1, the grids are small in Europe; but yeah they have serious technical rules.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

hell no .. why would Ferraru build an 911 ??

Simply: they would not be able.

[Dario911]

To prevent costs escalation, they must guarantee stable rules for at least 4 years.
No great improvements, but only little modifications, to improve every two years the cars, offered as kit package at a politic price from manufacturers to all customer teams.
It is too much expensive to race a competitive team in GT2 for more than few years. Year by year, a new GT2 package is offered to the customer teams by manufacturers, but costs are very high. To update a GT2 is very expensive, so it would be necessary to freeze the developement, in a certain way. In example, they could introduce an evolution step every two years, preserving the same rules for at least four years.
This may help to prevent cost escalation, the real killer of motorsport.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Why do they not freeze the series?

Money and influence or stupidity.... your call as to which it is.

[arakis]

My opinion porsche just did a stupid move, any and all improvements will be cancelled, by the FIA

for those that don't know all race cars are heavily tested before the begining of the season by the FIA, and on the bassis of their speed they are handed out hanidcap weigts, restrictor adjustments and so on, and they they are testet agian just to check tat everyone is at the same speed.

So its pointless to develop cars that are always going to be as fast as the slowest in the class!!!

Only thing that gt3 championship values is Driver and Teams, the cars are irelevant!!!

So making more expensive cars will only hurt porshe, cause peaple are just going to by other cheaper cars with the same performance..

By the way there are o Ferrari built GT3 race cars.., or micheloto built .

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by arakis

My opinion porsche just did a stupid move, any and all improvements will be cancelled, by the FIA

for those that don't know all race cars are heavily tested before the begining of the season by the FIA, and on the bassis of their speed they are handed out hanidcap weigts, restrictor adjustments and so on, and they they are testet agian just to check tat everyone is at the same speed.

So its pointless to develop cars that are always going to be as fast as the slowest in the class!!!

Only thing that gt3 championship values is Driver and Teams, the cars are irelevant!!!

So making more expensive cars will only hurt porshe, cause peaple are just going to by other cheaper cars with the same performance..

By the way there are o Ferrari built GT3 race cars.., or micheloto built .

The problem is: The equalisation process obviously doesn't work - why else would the Lambos and Vipers be on the verge of dying out and the Porsche Cup-S midfielders at best?
With high profile events like the 24hours at the 'Ring being contested by GT3 cars the class has become too important especially for the German manufacturers to be also-rans.

[Fogelhund]

If you decide there is stupidity here, it isn't Porsche's. They'll be selling new cars, earning shareholders profit. That isn't stupidity.

[arakis]

like i said the stupidity comes from the fact that if they make their cars more expensive, people will by other cars.... and there realy isn't much of a point in upgreading a car witch will be downgraded befoe the season starts

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by arakis

like i said the stupidity comes from the fact that if they make their cars more expensive, people will by other cars.... and there realy isn't much of a point in upgreading a car witch will be downgraded befoe the season starts

They'd be even more stupid if they'd be contend to sell a car that's not competitive - perhaps fewer people will buy more expensive cars (still 20k cheaper than the R8, btw ) but no one will buy uncompetitive machinery.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by arakis

like i said the stupidity comes from the fact that if they make their cars more expensive, people will by other cars.... and there realy isn't much of a point in upgreading a car witch will be downgraded befoe the season starts

Oh, but it doesn't work that way. All the new cars are becoming more expensive. The Porsche GT3 wasn't quite on pace last year.... good "excuse" to build a new one. If they "downgrade" Porsche GT3's, ALL of them will be downgraded, rendering year old off the pace cars, even more off the pace. There is a reason for this type of obsolescence.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by arakis

like i said the stupidity comes from the fact that if they make their cars more expensive, people will by other cars.... and there realy isn't much of a point in upgreading a car witch will be downgraded befoe the season starts

Whats the price differance between a Porsche GT3 and a Ferrari F430 GT3 please ?

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Whats the price differance between a Porsche GT3 and a Ferrari F430 GT3 please ?

I've asked the same thing but... nothing! No answers!
Someties, silent means more than thousands of words...

[arakis]

ferrari doesn't built gt3 cars,

there are a few 430 chalenge conversions, and a scuderia conversion by kessel neither of witch i ferrari or michelotto

[Graham Goodwin]

The Kessel built 430 GT3 from 2008 was listed at 273,000 Euros - that went up to 286,000 Euros the following year - not sure of cost of the 2009 Scuderia

[GT2-R]

What's the point of all this GT3-discussion? Audi's R8 is almost a GT1 without the downgrading so what's the problem? It is not a good thing that the constructors are building those expensive one year competitive cars but this has nothing to do with Porsche alone... All the manufacterers are doing it . By the way, this Porsche will also run in non-GT3 championships...

[JayBMS]

Stunning car, could be the beging of the end though