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Old 7 Mar 2017, 16:33 (Ref:3717073)   #101
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Originally Posted by billy bleach View Post
Quote of the day on BBC Sport - made me laugh if it wasn't so true

McLaren are like whenever I cook. I do everything by the book, but the house fills with smoke and it smells bad and I never know why.
That made me laugh as well. I feel bad for McLaren/Honda (especially so as a fan!)

I have been trying to read up on this subject as much as I can. A lot of speculation, but it does seem to center around the potential for a flaw in the engine (maybe related to it being used as a stressed member) that was not spotted in design or testing. Also speculation that the Honda engine is not a conservative design and some of this might be related to the aggressive nature of the design.

At the moment it doesn't sound positive for McLaren/Honda. I think there is a real potential for them to have an absolute terrible start to the season. What if they can't even qualify for the first round? Imagine the embarrassment. Maybe if they put MP4 back into the name things would go better! The ghost of Ron Dennis is haunting them and he isn't even dead yet!

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Old 7 Mar 2017, 17:58 (Ref:3717093)   #102
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McLaren are like whenever I cook. I do everything by the book, but the house fills with smoke and it smells bad and I never know why.
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Old 7 Mar 2017, 21:21 (Ref:3717119)   #103
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...I was thinking that.

Getting rid of Giles Simon doesn't bode well as a sign of this being simply teething issues.

I doubt they've even got the legs on Sauber. Madness. From the number of fan-videos of the McLaren at Barca it looks so twitchy at the rear too...

I think it's fair to guess that they're the slowest out there at the moment...
Getting rid or did he throw the towel in? He is no fool
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Old 7 Mar 2017, 21:24 (Ref:3717120)   #104
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That made me laugh as well. I feel bad for McLaren/Honda (especially so as a fan!)

I have been trying to read up on this subject as much as I can. A lot of speculation, but it does seem to center around the potential for a flaw in the engine (maybe related to it being used as a stressed member) that was not spotted in design or testing. Also speculation that the Honda engine is not a conservative design and some of this might be related to the aggressive nature of the design.

At the moment it doesn't sound positive for McLaren/Honda. I think there is a real potential for them to have an absolute terrible start to the season. What if they can't even qualify for the first round? Imagine the embarrassment. Maybe if they put MP4 back into the name things would go better! The ghost of Ron Dennis is haunting them and he isn't even dead yet!

Richard
I fail to grasp why a mule has not been grinding around Motegi all winter . A 2016 F1 car, A super formula chassis , a Super GT or LMP 2 chassis it cannot be that hard to build a test bed vehicle and put a development driver in and just pound around. Serious case of F1 up its own bottom and living on a flat earth me thinks. ....
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 01:05 (Ref:3717162)   #105
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I don't think they can run test mules like that? I could be wrong. Regardless it is shocking given the prior fiasco. You would think they would have done all they can to avoid a repeat. This may be worse than before. Honestly if they don't improve I don't see the relationship with Honda continuing in 2018. But still time to recover.

More speculation on the issue. It may be related to the new to Honda TJI system (pre combustion chamber).

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Old 8 Mar 2017, 06:34 (Ref:3717183)   #106
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I don't think they can run test mules like that? I could be wrong.
Ferrari did it in 2013. Spy video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od3H6Jxisfk
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 06:58 (Ref:3717187)   #107
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Ferrari did it in 2013. Spy video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od3H6Jxisfk
That thing sounds so sweet at the end. After watching this I was horribly let down when we finally heard the real deal. Thankfully the engines are starting to wake up a little now, but still don't sound fantastic.

Due to the noise - it is just so different to a current F1 engine, but does still sound like a V6 - I wonder if this engine was far enough away from an F1 engine that they could get away with it? Ie no fuel flow limit, no rev limit, different waste gate and blow off valve set up. Maybe Honda should do that to at least prove the base engine and get that side of things bullet proof, then tackle the rest of the equation.
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3717207)   #108
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Feel bad for Alonso. Top driver but since Renault has had the worst luck with picking the right team. He should be a triple world champion (or more), as he definitely has the talent.

I feel this year will be his last. Maybe we will see JB back this season if it becomes too much for Alonso and he decides to walk?
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 08:17 (Ref:3717209)   #109
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The new McLaren Honda is most certainly a major disappointment, but the problems is, how can McLaren sever their ties with Honda and use another engine next year? Who's engine would they use, you can't just pop to Northampton and pick up a van load of DFV's to slot it, it's not that simple anymore.
More importantly, Honda are suffering a number of major egg on face moments, these engine problems and failures are extremely public and not portraying the image a company like Honda wants. They have got to do whatever they need to so as to sort the engines out, then, if the chassis proves to be rubbish, then McLaren have got to sort that out.
I've never been a huge fan of the steamroller that McLaren used to be, but do think it's extremely sad to see the embarrassment that they appear to have become lately.
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 08:20 (Ref:3717210)   #110
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Looks like Honda have come prepared for today's session. A spy photo HERE.
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 14:06 (Ref:3717272)   #111
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Ferrari did it in 2013. Spy video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od3H6Jxisfk
Much was made of that at the time. Was it an F1 mule, a WEC mule, new roadcar mule? I don't think we ever had a definitive answer as to what that exactly was, but it probably was an F1 power unit mule. A quick peek at the sporting regulations shows that apparently the only thing restricted is testing of current and previous cars that are designed to F1 spec. So it does sound like you could create a mule that is not too close to F1 spec to test mechanical items such as the power unit. I don't think you could use it at all for any type of aero testing (which is not the topic of this discussion, but I wanted to mention that) as there is pretty extensive rules around aero testing.

I assume either Honda was confident in their existing testing and simulation setup, didn't have the time or resources allocated to do more extensive testing, or a bit of both.

Confirmation that Honda has taken an aggressive approach...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128097

Honda's situation have overshadowed most engine news, but I think Renault has had some as well. Their power unit is probably substantially revised as well.

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Old 8 Mar 2017, 15:28 (Ref:3717292)   #112
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I don't think they can run test mules like that? I could be wrong. Regardless it is shocking given the prior fiasco. You would think they would have done all they can to avoid a repeat. This may be worse than before. Honestly if they don't improve I don't see the relationship with Honda continuing in 2018. But still time to recover.

More speculation on the issue. It may be related to the new to Honda TJI system (pre combustion chamber).

Richard
Absolutely no reason why an LMP 2 car ( lots of space for test pieces) could not be used.
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 15:32 (Ref:3717294)   #113
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Honda's situation have overshadowed most engine news, but I think Renault has had some as well. Their power unit is probably substantially revised as well.
Good point - Honda have been woeful but plenty of Renault units have gone pop as well (Red Bull have changed another engine today).
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 16:03 (Ref:3717304)   #114
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we often talk about manus transferring technology between their F1 programs and road car divisions...it seems odd that there could ever be a rule preventing them from running their F1 engines in mules/road cars, particularity, if done under the pretense of transferring those technologies between the two divisions.

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I assume either Honda was confident in their existing testing and simulation setup, didn't have the time or resources allocated to do more extensive testing, or a bit of both.
i would be inclined to thinks along the resource line, specifically how much Honda is really prepared to spend as a supplier for its F1 engine program vs how much of those funds are being (mis?)directed towards sponsorship or drivers payments.

as for getting rid of Honda...too soon for sure but i would have thought that with Manor shutting down there is a extra Merc engine supply deal floating around and if that deal has an option to renew for 2018...either way though, i would think that Merc have some excess capacity to provide a new engine deal now.
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 16:46 (Ref:3717306)   #115
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we often talk about manus transferring technology between their F1 programs and road car divisions...it seems odd that there could ever be a rule preventing them from running their F1 engines in mules/road cars, particularity, if done under the pretense of transferring those technologies between the two divisions.
When I read the regulations I see lots of ways they could test in various mules. So many that I really suspect the rules are somewhat self regulated via gentleman's agreements. For example they clearly talk about preventing testing in cars designed to F1 specifications (with breakdowns between very current, recent and historic cars). But a key point is that it is "to F1 spec" (or similar wording). If you want to go to the letter of the rule, you could build a car that is 99.999% F1 spec, but has some slight difference (too heavy, too wide, etc.) It may fit the letter of the law, but would clearly be against the spirit (which I know doesn't exist!). So they probably try to not push the envelope and create a mule that maybe isn't open wheel (i.e. clearly not an F1 "like" car.) Doing as I suggest above would result in howls of protests from other manufactures.

On the flip side, if the car is not close enough to the real deal, then you really are not testing it correctly. For example if the chassis doesn't use the engine as a stressed member, or it can't pull the requisite g-loads, then what is the point. You might as well just do the tests on a rig inside. So in short, road cars are a poor choice. Regardless, the rules seem open enough that IHMO, no pretense is actually needed. It's probably a money thing. Because they clearly have a slew of test equipment they would use behind closed doors. It would be extra costs above and beyond that.

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i would be inclined to thinks along the resource line, specifically how much Honda is really prepared to spend as a supplier for its F1 engine program vs how much of those funds are being (mis?)directed towards sponsorship or drivers payments.
Agree. But I wonder what the conversations were like between Honda and McLaren in the runup to the pre-season testing. Was the word from Honda "All is fine" or "Might be a rough ride"? In short, is the level and depth of problems a surprise to Honda and McLaren? I suspect they were more confident than the should have been. But that is easy to say in hindsight.

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as for getting rid of Honda...too soon for sure but i would have thought that with Manor shutting down there is a extra Merc engine supply deal floating around and if that deal has an option to renew for 2018...either way though, i would think that Merc have some excess capacity to provide a new engine deal now.
I suspect everyone would agree that it's probably too early to pull the trigger on any switch and clearly there would be close to zero chance it could happen during the 2017 season (not enough time to redesign and construct a new back end of the car even if they had a PU in hand... and the same is probably true if they try to put in the 2016 Honda engine) Honda's F1 future is in their own hands. Fix this and all may be OK, but if problems linger deep into the season then... who knows. I suspect they will get the basic reliability addressed within relatively short order, but potentially at the expense of their initial power goals. The loss of real testing time also impact the ability to work on overall power unit drivability issues which will also impact overall performance of the car. I can see Australian and Chinese GPs as nothing more than test session for McLaren/Honda.

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Old 8 Mar 2017, 17:22 (Ref:3717312)   #116
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I suspect cost and "morality" are the reasons but it has been done before in lower (slightly) formula where testing was restricted. In the case I am thinking of it was driver training rather than technical testing but it could certainly be done with an LMP car surely?
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 20:25 (Ref:3717341)   #117
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I seem to remember Red Bull being in a similar situation to McLaren not so long ago.



If Honda wanted a test mule I suspect a super formula chassis from Japan could be adapted.
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Old 8 Mar 2017, 22:05 (Ref:3717348)   #118
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i have attached some pics a friend took while over at Ferrari. this is the test mule. interesting it is said to have a v12. also for development for a closed wheel racing series. highly doubt either, seems oddly ironic a test mule appears right before a new season of f1 with a major rules change. also note the wing, all the test vids i have seen of the mule, it did not have a wing
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ferrari 1.jpg   ferrari 2.jpg   ferrari 3.jpg  

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Old 8 Mar 2017, 22:45 (Ref:3717352)   #119
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Alonso telling it like it is...

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/124...ead-of-f1-2017

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Old 9 Mar 2017, 02:03 (Ref:3717384)   #120
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I don't blame him at all, let's go Honda...
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 09:20 (Ref:3717453)   #121
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Yep, Alonso is well within his rights to slam Honda, to still be in this situation in their 3rd year is just awful, but I'm sure Alonsos wage packet will soften the blow.......and from McLarens perspective having a free engine will relax their finances opposed to paying for it, so be careful what you wish for on both counts.

As for Honda sacking Gilles Simon, they were deluded to hire him in the first place, he was from a past era of normally-aspirated engine design in the V10 and V8 era, the track results have shown that he knows nothing about pressure-charged engines, the adaptation of the axial-flow exhaust turbine was a shocker in itself.

If Honda have any sense they will give Mario Illien a call, Ilmor have loads of pressure-charged engine experience from the Indy-car days, and its benefiting their GM IRL program to this day. But there seems an cultural reluctance in Honda to use european consulting companies, this is their overall problem......I'm sure behind the scenes McLaren will be heaping pressure upon Honda so immediately fix the situation.
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 10:45 (Ref:3717477)   #122
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McLaren and Honda's press conference today has been cancelled.
No news is... bad news?
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 11:06 (Ref:3717483)   #123
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Honda are in deep trouble aren't they ..
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 11:19 (Ref:3717484)   #124
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Yep, Alonso is well within his rights to slam Honda, to still be in this situation in their 3rd year is just awful, but I'm sure Alonsos wage packet will soften the blow.......and from McLarens perspective having a free engine will relax their finances opposed to paying for it, so be careful what you wish for on both counts.

As for Honda sacking Gilles Simon, they were deluded to hire him in the first place, he was from a past era of normally-aspirated engine design in the V10 and V8 era, the track results have shown that he knows nothing about pressure-charged engines, the adaptation of the axial-flow exhaust turbine was a shocker in itself.

If Honda have any sense they will give Mario Illien a call, Ilmor have loads of pressure-charged engine experience from the Indy-car days, and its benefiting their GM IRL program to this day. But there seems an cultural reluctance in Honda to use european consulting companies, this is their overall problem......I'm sure behind the scenes McLaren will be heaping pressure upon Honda so immediately fix the situation.
Honda's culture seems to be changing from hubris to pigheaded stupidity!
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Old 9 Mar 2017, 11:25 (Ref:3717486)   #125
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Honda are in deep trouble aren't they ..
I assume that was to be one of the questions for Eric Boullier.



I think come May 13th, we might see low 1:17's. Even high 16's judging by the pace the cars are capable of.
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