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Old 20 Dec 2011, 21:16 (Ref:3002437)   #1226
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The norm for the ALMS is not all pro line-ups throughout the field, it's a couple of factory Audi's with a valiant effort from Dyson keeping things interesting, a GT1 field consisting of Corvette and the odd Saleen/Maserati, and GT2 resembling a Porsche Cup. As you regularly state, TV ratings were in decline when the series was at it's LMP peak in 2006-8, so other issues are major factors.
What you speak of was 2004 and 2005 seasons.... for LMP... otherwise you are flat wrong.

So, are two seasons of the first ten the norm, or are eight of ten seasons the norm?

The GT1 field mostly consisted of pro drivers, and the "Porsche Cup", won by PTG BMW in 99', BMW second in 00', BMW won drivers, manufacturers and team in 01', pro Risi second in GT in 03' (though it was a whitewash for wins), Risi won team champ in 06', 07', Ferrari lost manufacturers by 5 points in 08'..and we know the history since then.

So, yes it was practically a Porsche cup for three maybe four years.. but there has been competition in the other 7-8 years... so NO that isn't the norm either. All of these championships have been won by pro-drivers too.

Really, just making things up doesn't help an argument at all.

There are many issues here, poor management of the ALMS, poor management by the ACO and poor management by the WEC/FIA.

------------------------

I'll deal with the rest later, particularly the part about turning the corner.... I'll agree, it sure has turned a corner... Once confidence is lost in management... it's lost.
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Old 20 Dec 2011, 23:23 (Ref:3002478)   #1227
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The first thing to deal with is the world, and sport, have changed dramatically since 2008. Yesterday saw some positive developments for the series, steps that need to be taken before we can hope to get back to grids like 2008, to dismiss it out of hand as expensive club racing..............it's not an accurate description and doesn't acknowledge how series grow and attract factory interest over time, rarely does a series start from day one with factory teams, there were unique reasons why the ALMS did.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 00:27 (Ref:3002490)   #1228
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The series has a leg up on GA through the ACO link
Yeah? What "leg up" does that give the ALMS?
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 00:39 (Ref:3002494)   #1229
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The same "leg up" that allowed the series to have a flying start in '99, a fleet of LMP's and GT's already running at Le Mans, whether the series can attract those cars is a different matter.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 00:46 (Ref:3002495)   #1230
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The same "leg up" that allowed the series to have a flying start in '99, a fleet of LMP's and GT's already running at Le Mans, whether the series can attract those cars is a different matter.
So, in other words, they don't have a "leg up." The one time where they could realistically get a "leg up" is Petit, but the WEC seems to be doing their damnedest to keep WEC teams out of Petit. Outside of Le Mans auto-invites, and who knows if there will even be those in the future for the ALMS, what advantages are there exactly for the ALMS in regard to the ACO marriage? Even the auto-invites are cheapened by the fact that teams get auto-invites regardless of performance if they are accepted into the WEC.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 00:49 (Ref:3002497)   #1231
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The first thing to deal with is the world, and sport, have changed dramatically since 2008. Yesterday saw some positive developments for the series, steps that need to be taken before we can hope to get back to grids like 2008, to dismiss it out of hand as expensive club racing..............it's not an accurate description and doesn't acknowledge how series grow and attract factory interest over time, rarely does a series start from day one with factory teams, there were unique reasons why the ALMS did.
The world hasn't changed since 2008, it is the same as it has been for centuries. Cycles, fear, greed and so on. The Sport, yes it has changed, due to the creation of the WEC taking away the Professional LMP teams, and factory teams.

How do sportscar series grow then in the modern era?

FIA GT was due to factory interest, as it grew from BPR. The ALMS had factory interest. The WEC had factory interest. LMS had Audi factory interest, and a desire to race in Europe... FIA GT in it's latest changes had factory interest... hmmmm

Rarely do series see all of the money and manufacturer support leave, and survive without a complete reorganization. This has been deteriorating for many years, and continues to. There has been no catalyst for change to make it professional again, in fact the opposite.

I'm sorry that you do not agree this is expensive club racing, but I fail to see it as much else. ONE amateur LMP team, with PRO drivers... the rest are filled with amateurs, and ride buyers. I'll admit, Chris Dyson is a VERY GOOD amateur, as good as the sport has seen. But that doesn't change our reality. It doesn't matter how fast the cars are, or how expensive they are, how pretty the transport trucks are, if the pro teams aren't there, it isn't pro racing anymore. If it isn't pro racing, it is amateur aka, club racing. That is what it has started to become, and that trend will continue.

What you call positive changes, are for numbers in the LMP2 category only, but they just reinforce what the series has become. By the start of the season, we shall still see real ACO cars drop in numbers year/year. If down is the new up... fair enough.

2008 Laguna 18 all pro teams
2009 Laguna 12
2010 Laguna 11
2011 Laguna 12
2012 Laguna 8..
2013 4-6....

PSCR had some interesting cars, but the fan attendance eroded, and there was no chance of factory involvement without change... that change was the ALMS. Sportscar racing won't die, but like it always has, the cycle has run it's course, and it requires a new rebirth in North America. It will survive as amateur hour as long as it fancies Panoz, or until someone finally pays too much for it.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 01:39 (Ref:3002508)   #1232
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So, in other words, they don't have a "leg up." The one time where they could realistically get a "leg up" is Petit, but the WEC seems to be doing their damnedest to keep WEC teams out of Petit. Outside of Le Mans auto-invites, and who knows if there will even be those in the future for the ALMS, what advantages are there exactly for the ALMS in regard to the ACO marriage? Even the auto-invites are cheapened by the fact that teams get auto-invites regardless of performance if they are accepted into the WEC.
You misunderstand my point, with the possible exception of Corvette, every car on the ALMS grid will be built with or without the ALMS, and every car that runs at Le Mans is eligable for the ALMS.

You can see with GA how difficult it is to attract the variety of brands the ALMS has, in both LMP and GT, without resorting to tube-frame cars that are essentially the same under the skin, now we see GA dipping into the GT3 pool to up the variety and desirability of their grids.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 01:51 (Ref:3002510)   #1233
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You misunderstand my point, with the possible exception of Corvette, every car on the ALMS grid will be built with or without the ALMS, and every car that runs at Le Mans is eligable for the ALMS.

You can see with GA how difficult it is to attract the variety of brands the ALMS has, in both LMP and GT, without resorting to tube-frame cars that are essentially the same under the skin, now we see GA dipping into the GT3 pool to up the variety and desirability of their grids.
Ok, but how is the "ACO link" (at least the official one) beneficial to the ALMS? The ALMS could always pick and choose what they want to allow and what they don't. If they want to accept ACO-like cars without a formal agreement, fine as far as I can tell. I'm not sure if that's what the ALMS should do in totality if they kicked the ACO to the curb, but whatever.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 01:51 (Ref:3002511)   #1234
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You don't need to be tied to the ACO, to use a common set of rules, modified for your own needs.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 04:34 (Ref:3002526)   #1235
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You don't need to be tied to the ACO, to use a common set of rules, modified for your own needs.
Agreed, the deal with the ACO is purely for use of the Le Mans name. And the promos that said "born in Le Mans in 1923..." don't seem to interest people. What can you do for me now? How good is the show?

I will disagree slightly with you Fog... IMSA of the late-70s was laden with gentleman drivers and made for very exciting racing. I do however agree that the ALMS is risking a lot "staying the course" with its current brand and rules set. I am with you on the frustration over what has happened to our beloved series though, man. It was the best in the world for a bright, shining moment.

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Old 21 Dec 2011, 05:04 (Ref:3002529)   #1236
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IMSA of the late-70s was laden with gentleman drivers
I'll go one step further and say that all-pro-racing is the exception for (US-) sportscar racing and fields largely made up by gentlemen drivers are the rule.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 17:44 (Ref:3002814)   #1237
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Ok, but how is the "ACO link" (at least the official one) beneficial to the ALMS? The ALMS could always pick and choose what they want to allow and what they don't. If they want to accept ACO-like cars without a formal agreement, fine as far as I can tell. I'm not sure if that's what the ALMS should do in totality if they kicked the ACO to the curb, but whatever.
Before arguing for change you need to ask if this will address the series problems, or if they are unrelated to the ACO link, the strong ALMS brand (certainly amongst motorsport fans) shouldn't be ditched without thought, I'm familiar with IMSA Camel GT(P), but I must admit I don't even know what the series prior to the ALMS was called.

The ALMS has freedom to allow any LMP built in the last however many years, the biggest issue has not been the ACO blocking a specific car, it's been supply issues or lack of support for cars like the RS Spyder and Lola Aston.

When it comes to modifying cars you have to ask why would you deviate from a manufactuers spec, would it be quicker and/or cheaper, and who would pay? Given the ALMS looks like it will be allowed to homologate some GT3's, what other cars would the ALMS bring in if it divorced from the ACO, DP's and tube-frame GT's?

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Old 21 Dec 2011, 18:00 (Ref:3002823)   #1238
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the strong ALMS brand (certainly amongst motorsport fans) shouldn't be ditched without thought, I'm familiar with IMSA Camel GT(P), but I must admit I don't even know what the series prior to the ALMS was called.
This is a myopic statement, due to being a sportscar anorak. I am one too. The general public doesn't have a clue what the ALMS is, let alone whether it is a good brand or not. I believe IMSA still carries just as much recognition amongst most North American fans. ALMS also have a very negative image amongst a good portion of corporate america.

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The ALMS has freedom to allow any LMP built in the last however many years, the biggest issue has not been the ACO blocking a specific car, it's been supply issues or lack of support for cars like the RS Spyder and Lola Aston.
It comes down to a lack of interest in entrants, high costs, and poor ROI.


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When it comes to modifying cars you have to ask why would you deviate from a manufactuers spec, would it be quicker and/or cheaper, and who would pay? Given the ALMS looks like it will be allowed to homologate some GT3's, what other cars would the ALMS bring in if it divorced from the ACO, DP's and tube-frame GT's?
I'm not certain there would be too many more chassis builders involved. Sure, modifications such as what Robinson did with the R&S could be allowed, this has been the history of the sport in North America... see Porsche 962's, 935's....

I think from a fan interest point of view though, you want to allow the Big V8's to run in the Big class. The Aston V12... This is racing, the sight, the sounds, the feeling... they've banned the popular engines. The Panoz LMP1 is probably still the most popular LMP car in North America, due to the engine sounds, and of course being "American". That big V8 rumble is a part of the culture here... and without it, well it just doesn't seem right.

--------------------------------

Anyway, the rules, which cars etc, are all pretty irrelevant for now. Until the management of the series is changed, or somehow gets a new religion, this is all for naught.
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Old 21 Dec 2011, 18:48 (Ref:3002836)   #1239
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The ALMS has freedom to allow any LMP built in the last however many years, the biggest issue has not been the ACO blocking a specific car, it's been supply issues or lack of support for cars like the RS Spyder and Lola Aston.
but how would you balance the old cars with the new ones? If teams spend a lot of money buying a new car, how would they react if some old proto is almost as good as or even better (because there needs to be some sort of balance between "grandfathered" and current cars. But if the old car is off the pace, no one will use it). On the other hand, if the ALMS wont get a few (dozen) more protos in the next few years, maybe it would be a good idea to let some older lmps race.

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Old 21 Dec 2011, 22:15 (Ref:3002934)   #1240
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it's not a definitive answer lmp, but the devil's advocate in me say that new cars are:

a) often easier to drive or simpler to run - especially ones built with customers in mind

b) easier to source maintenance, support and spares for

The existing ALMS teams are hardly enough to warrant manufacturers building bespoke cars for, but if new entrants brought new cars and grandfathered ones were matched on pace, the benefits in upgrading older machinery can still be found in the above.
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Old 22 Dec 2011, 01:44 (Ref:3002989)   #1241
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Before arguing for change you need to ask if this will address the series problems, or if they are unrelated to the ACO link, the strong ALMS brand (certainly amongst motorsport fans) shouldn't be ditched without thought, I'm familiar with IMSA Camel GT(P), but I must admit I don't even know what the series prior to the ALMS was called.
A strong brand yesterday does not always make for a strong brand today. Just ask Oldsmobile, Plymouth, CART, Montgomery Ward, Commodore, McDonnell Douglas, and countless others. The ALMS was the beautiful fashion model for a brief moment, but it is now the old hag wife of an abusive spouse that has turned to the drugs and alcohol of the racing world (BoP and spec racing) just to live to the next day. It's not a pretty sight. Fans are bailing if they have not bailed already.

How to fix it? Well, there are some obvious ideas that might work but the question of how to get there isn't so easy. First, the ALMS has to step outside of the shadow of the ACO. Americans don't put up with those who have a loser's mentality and that is exactly what the ALMS has. That is abundantly clear. Second, they have to find some way to get equipment on the grid that is exciting to the fanbase. They need prototypes that look, sound, and run fast. They need GT cars that aren't confusing and political in nature. The cars need to be relevant to the fan base. If there needs to be a class of pony and other sporty cars, then make one. So on and so forth. And the rules must be fair and consistent over time. The different class structures should have predictable pricing. Also, they need races that are second to none.

Will we ever get those things? I don't know. It does not look like it is going to happen any time soon. Heck, I'd be happy if someone made a series like that in Europe or Asia, but I really hope to see one in NA. We'll see what happens, but the status quo definitely isn't sustainable. I think it goes without saying that the American public is not eagerly awaiting to see what Chris Dyson and Jay Cochran have to offer in 2012 with their BoPwagon Lola.
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 17:50 (Ref:3006822)   #1242
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This isn't really "News", but I had a weird dream where I was watching some kind of ALMS race last night. I remember seeing the Corvettes and 2 Falken Porsches for some reason. Guess my fandom must really be kicking in when I'm starting to dream about the series!
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 17:55 (Ref:3006824)   #1243
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This isn't really "News", but I had a weird dream where I was watching some kind of ALMS race last night. I remember seeing the Corvettes and 2 Falken Porsches for some reason. Guess my fandom must really be kicking in when I'm starting to dream about the series!





I once had a dream of full proto grids and a stable schedule/series...
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 18:26 (Ref:3006835)   #1244
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I'll go one step further and say that all-pro-racing is the exception for (US-) sportscar racing and fields largely made up by gentlemen drivers are the rule.
Whom ever decided to tack that asinine moniker "gentleman drivers" onto U.S. racers should be taken out back behind the shed and whipped.

They were hard working independents or weekend racers because they still had to pay the bills and had no sugar daddy.

Babe Headley busted his knuckles during the week working on peoples cars at his garage while racing on money from his pocket and came very close to winning his class championship.
As Speed said the vast minority of drivers in GT or sedan sports car racing in the U.S. were not professionals and it still flourished.
---------------------
Before the silly name ALMS, the IMSA races were called IMSA.
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Old 3 Jan 2012, 22:30 (Ref:3006931)   #1245
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If IMSA was so brilliant , why did it fold ?

And more to the point , if it was as popular , why hasnt it been reserected in a more modern scenario ?

Leave sportscar racing to you lot , and you end up with Grand-Am ..... whoopy do .
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Old 4 Jan 2012, 01:49 (Ref:3006979)   #1246
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If IMSA was so brilliant , why did it fold ?

And more to the point , if it was as popular , why hasnt it been reserected in a more modern scenario ?
IMSA never really folded. Andy Evans or no Andy Evans, the bottom line is that IMSA went from having an unprecedented level of professionalism in both GTP and GTO/GTU even to the less-than-spectacular WSC era. That was major buzzkill. The same is true of the ALMS today. IMSA GTP and ALMS set the bar high, but that just means the fall is even harder.

Anyway, it seems that the IRL is hiring Beaux Barfield away from IMSA.
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Old 4 Jan 2012, 04:22 (Ref:3006996)   #1247
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Leave sportscar racing to you lot , and you end up with Grand-Am ..... whoopy do .
And the various iterations of Trans-Am, and the Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge and so forth. I used to be fearful that non-Americans actually felt as you do, but I think we have a long enough history to show that we do things quite well indeed.

As for your point on IMSA GT, the ALMS is very much its offspring. The ALMS is IMSA racing (sans-Daytona) but with more reliance on the ACO rulebook because the current brain trust at the head of IMSA('s ownership) decided we need to bend over backwards to make sports car racing stronger and have a "unified" global rule set. While that benefited the ALMS for a while, it seems to be biting American sports car racing fans in the butt now.

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Old 4 Jan 2012, 18:17 (Ref:3007256)   #1248
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http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...race-director/
I'm not sure how significant this will be (if at all), but Paul Walter has been named the ALMS's new race director
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Old 4 Jan 2012, 18:43 (Ref:3007268)   #1249
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If IMSA was so brilliant , why did it fold ?

And more to the point , if it was as popular , why hasnt it been reserected in a more modern scenario ?

Leave sportscar racing to you lot , and you end up with Grand-Am ..... whoopy do .


As mentioned previously IMSA never folded, it is in fact who runs the ALMS.

www.imsaracing.net

I'm sorry, Don Panoz bailed out the ACO, both financially, and with the creation of the ALMS. If it wasn't for "us lot", Sportscar Racing over there would still be a mess.
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Old 4 Jan 2012, 19:25 (Ref:3007291)   #1250
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Sportscar racing ...... at least our manufacturers support our own series ..... look to your own door step when looking for blame .
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