IMSA DPi Discussion

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think the racing was much better before hybrids. You only had two teams competing for wins just like now (in the ILMC). Except they had diesel engines. In the ALMS it was a rule tweak and some more power for lmp2's that kept them with the R10's. Then when Audi left ALMS, it was Acura vs Porsche for a little bit until that was gone. Then you had the occasional p1 battle with Dyson vs the Acura with the latter cleaning up most the time. Now you got the same Cadillac winning, even if it starts at the rear of the prototypes The more things change, the more they stay the same!

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Agreed. IMSA had some decent racing, but lets remember they balanced those P2s with the R10s to get that racing. And it was a bit fake anyway, because even when the Porsche P2s won, the Audis still got full points because it was a different class. So you might've had decent racing, but it was forced, and not fighting over anything.

I do think that WEC is providing better racing with the P1s than LMS did with the P1s back in the day. LMS was good, but some of the racing we've had recently is madness. But I also think we've got better racing all the way through. Remember how poor LMP2/LMP675 was a decade ago, and now how close it is.

As I understood it way back in the day, the P2 and P1 cars were initially that close, and when the ACO saw that they pegged back the LMP2 cars, but IMSA didn't follow along, because Porsche wanted to be competing for overall wins the whole time. Porsche had seen the overall-winning-potential of the LMP2 package as initially written and jumped into the ALMS for that reason, and IMSA wasn't going to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Chris

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

As I understood it way back in the day, the P2 and P1 cars were initially that close, and when the ACO saw that they pegged back the LMP2 cars, but IMSA didn't follow along, because Porsche wanted to be competing for overall wins the whole time. Porsche had seen the overall-winning-potential of the LMP2 package as initially written and jumped into the ALMS for that reason, and IMSA wasn't going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Chris

And it annoyed Audi a good deal too, from rumors I either heard or invented. They were paying the big bucks and getting beaten by a "second-class" car.

[carbsmith]

Porsche didn't have any particular intention of racing for overall wins, just selling race cars. Penske and Dyson probably did. A significant part of the reason Porsche raced in LMP2 at the time was that they had an agreement with VAG not to race in the top class for 10 years. On one hand it explains why Audi was so mad but makes some of their public statements at the time unfair.

[joeb]

DPi?

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by joeb

DPi?

ikr

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Porsche didn't have any particular intention of racing for overall wins, just selling race cars. Penske and Dyson probably did. A significant part of the reason Porsche raced in LMP2 at the time was that they had an agreement with VAG not to race in the top class for 10 years. On one hand it explains why Audi was so mad but makes some of their public statements at the time unfair.

Porsche had absolutely every intention of racing for overall wins. That's why they had a factory development program run by Penske. The Captain also had every intention of winning races, particularly Sebring, where an LMP2 car would always be at a bit of a disadvantage because power pays on the airfield.

Chris

[Maelochs]

So ... whatever else, those were good days.

I don't see why we couldn't again have good days.

Right now I'd say the biggest weakness in IMSA is the lack of quality teams.

Most of the smaller teams just keep on disappointing ... but their machinery shouldn't be as bad as it seems to be, I think.

Even rebellion couldn't seem to make its stuff work.

How much different would this season look if there were a few more Champion Audi or Penske Porsche -level teams running?

Even as it stands ... I'd rather see one team dominate (Hello Audi, the ALMS would like the first decade of the century back, please) than see BoP level the field on a race-buy-race basis.

(If it was just the Cadillac, the two halves of AXR should have won something by now.)

I keep hoping some of the losing teams will get their stuff straight and put up a decent fight ... but the racing as a whole hasn't been bad. The races have been entertaining throughout ,... and it is only a very limited sort of appreciation which only cares about the last instant of the race and who's ahead when the checker waves.

[Matt]

Rebellion was doing damn good, they just broke.

[Rcz]

There was some indycar news that said a deal with a 3rd car manufacturers fell through. It was reported to be Lamborghini.

Now I wonder, does that mean they may turn their eye to IMSA for major representation in America? The original engine rules hinted a V10 so maybe...?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Rcz

There was some indycar news that said a deal with a 3rd car manufacturers fell through. It was reported to be Lamborghini.

Now I wonder, does that mean they may turn their eye to IMSA for major representation in America? The original engine rules hinted a V10 so maybe...?

The article referenced in the Porsche to leave LMP1 rumors also had a section about Audi/Joest DPi interest with the TT 2.9L V6, not the usually referenced Audi/Lamborghini V10 GT3 engine. Leaving it open for Lamborghini to have their own program as well??

[hondafan37]

ORECA In Talks With Three Factories Over Near-Future DPi Projects

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...-projects.html

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

ORECA In Talks With Three Factories Over Near-Future DPi Projects

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...-projects.html

Fairly good news ... I hope we can get at least two out of three.

Penske-Honda-Oreca ... well except for the Honda engine ... and anything Lamborghini (except it will really be an Audi .... )

On another hand ... anything Audi will be exceedingly welcome.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Fairly good news ... I hope we can get at least two out of three.

Penske-Honda-Oreca ... well except for the Honda engine ... and anything Lamborghini (except it will really be an Audi .... )

On another hand ... anything Audi will be exceedingly welcome.

HPD engines are fine. They're not like the troubled f1 unit. It probably won't be the Indycar engine either so I think reliability shouldn't be a question. Performance I don't know but Oreca has the car to beat in lmp2.

[Rcz]

Its a shame they couldn't grandfather the old Ligier with Honda engines, Shanks may have stayed in DPi.

I hate the idea that there is only 4 chassis allowed, and forces one engine on privateers. Its actually not a bad idea to force the factories based teams to use the apporve chassis since it will keep cost from going up too fast but privateer based with no factory support should be able to bring anything they want. If they want a unbranded V10 Judd, the let them.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Its a shame they couldn't grandfather the old Ligier with Honda engines, Shanks may have stayed in DPi.

I hate the idea that there is only 4 chassis allowed, and forces one engine on privateers. Its actually not a bad idea to force the factories based teams to use the apporve chassis since it will keep cost from going up too fast but privateer based with no factory support should be able to bring anything they want. If they want a unbranded V10 Judd, the let them.

I think he wanted the factory cash and Pew was retiring so bye race car as well. Next year will be a different story when he will have to find drivers and cash again for the program to continue. Unless they made a new agreement to extend the one year factory deals with Lexus and Acura.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

HPD engines are fine. They're not like the troubled f1 unit. It probably won't be the Indycar engine either so I think reliability shouldn't be a question. Performance I don't know but Oreca has the car to beat in lmp2.

Oreca has the car to beat with Dunlop tyres, but Cadillac has the car to beat with Continental tyres.

[Akrapovic]

I'm not sure it's as clean cut with ORECA outside of Le Mans. Ligier won round 1 of ELMS, and there were Dallaras in there too. ORECA did win round 2, but again the Dallara was superb at Monza. I think in the high downforce setup, the ORECA is much closer to the rest of the pack than it is at Le Mans.

AFAIK, the IMSA private teams aren't getting the Le Mans kit over in the US, so the massive low downforce gap isn't there.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Oreca has the car to beat with Dunlop tyres ,AND low downforce but Cadillac has the car to beat with Continental tyres.

Seems like the cars are matched fairly well on most tracks, LM like Daytona messes with the rest of the series balance. Sadly they are both the most publicized races of the season.

[bentley speed 8]

The Oreca has always been the best package at LM, even the 05 was a little faster then the JSP2, although not to the extent we see now. I think it has to do with Oreca's experience working with Rebellion's R-One program

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Its a shame they couldn't grandfather the old Ligier with Honda engines, Shanks may have stayed in DPi.

I hate the idea that there is only 4 chassis allowed, and forces one engine on privateers. Its actually not a bad idea to force the factories based teams to use the apporve chassis since it will keep cost from going up too fast but privateer based with no factory support should be able to bring anything they want. If they want a unbranded V10 Judd, the let them.

I mean, outside of like the specialty single car programs(SMP, Strakka), everyone really only used one of 4 chassis, and everyone at the end essentially used the Nissan motor. We really were already the same as we've got now, just with one or two outliers.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt

I mean, outside of like the specialty single car programs(SMP, Strakka), everyone really only used one of 4 chassis, and everyone at the end essentially used the Nissan motor. We really were already the same as we've got now, just with one or two outliers.

We didn't lose as much as some say, for sure, but I think we did lose a bit that we didn't need to. SMP usually ran two cars, but we lost Gibson/Zytek, which was winning right till the end of its life, and these rules mean you can't run an old generation car like a few did with the Morgan and ORECA 03.

Totally agree on the engine though. You could run a mediocre Judd, or the Nissan. Everyone who was anywhere near the front ran the Nissan. So really all we've gone is drop the Judd, and give everyone an awesome sounding engine. But I do miss the chassis variety.

Really though, IMSA could do what they want. Why can't they allow other chassis in? Only issue they'd have is BoPing an engine up to the current spec, since the new engines are much more powerful. It's IMSAs game, and as long as someone doesn't want to take it to Le Mans, I don't see it being a problem.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's IMSAs game, and as long as someone doesn't want to take it to Le Mans, I don't see it being a problem.

Could be that IMSA is supporting FIA because IMSA Wants to be allowed to run Le Mans.

Even IMSA management can see that Le Mans is the world's premier sports car race. I think they are angling to get accepted and are willing to follow FIA rules as much as possible to get there.

IMSA needed engine variety for two reasons: First, the fans were not about to tolerate another spec series, and second, IMSA needed the factories, and there was no way to get the factories involved for cheap besides engine-badging (and chassis-badging.)

If IMSA opened the class to more chassis manufacturers, that might embarrass FIA.

[kvenom]

Multimatic taking on a bigger role in the Riley-Multimatic partnership:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...programme.html

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We didn't lose as much as some say, for sure, but I think we did lose a bit that we didn't need to. SMP usually ran two cars, but we lost Gibson/Zytek, which was winning right till the end of its life, and these rules mean you can't run an old generation car like a few did with the Morgan and ORECA 03.

Totally agree on the engine though. You could run a mediocre Judd, or the Nissan. Everyone who was anywhere near the front ran the Nissan. So really all we've gone is drop the Judd, and give everyone an awesome sounding engine. But I do miss the chassis variety.

Really though, IMSA could do what they want. Why can't they allow other chassis in? Only issue they'd have is BoPing an engine up to the current spec, since the new engines are much more powerful. It's IMSAs game, and as long as someone doesn't want to take it to Le Mans, I don't see it being a problem.

Single-car should have read more as single team, I apologize for that. Like, a team developing a single car for them to use.

[Jonerz]

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/14149...ning-continues

More details on Honda. I guess the announcement in August won't be accompanied by the reveal of the car, which is strange. I doubt they make it to Petit, but I bet they're in contention to win at Daytona.

Chris