Does Grand Am Have The Answer To The IRL's Woes?

[GP Racer]

The Grand Am series is easily the fastest growing racing series in the world right now. Everybody seem's to want in, and their growth is nothing short of phenominal. IMO, they have a fantastic, simple formula, that I believe can work for the IRL to. Both series are similar, in that they offer alot of the same things, passing, lead changes, and wheel-to-wheel action where many cars have a chance to win.

Could this be the answer to the IRL's engine woes, and the ever increasing costs of OW racing?

Read below for GARRA's simple, successful formula:


An Affordable Race car

When the Grand American staff sat down to develop rules for the Daytona Prototypes, their first priority was to design a car that would be affordable for privateer teams, not just multi-billion dollar auto manufacturers. By restricting the use of exotic materials and relying on proven technologies, a race-winning Daytona Prototype can be manufactured for less than $400,000 - a substantial savings compared to other sports car formulas.

Technical Overview

The Daytona Prototype is a flat-bottomed, closed cockpit, mid-engine coupe with a complete frame (non-stressed engine). It uses independent suspension with adjustable shock absorbers. Each car is aerodynamically designed to be as efficient as possible in speed and downforce, using a mandated, common to all cars, rear wing.

Engines

Engines for Daytona Prototypes are available from production car manufacturers from throughout the world. To be legal, an engine must be submitted to Grand American for approval. Engines are tested and inspected to determine the power characteristics and internal components, and then that engine is approved for competition with the configuration established during testing. All engine components are available to any competitor who wishes to use them. This guarantees each competitor a chance to run near the front of the pack and race fans the prospect of exciting, close racing from start to finish.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by GP Racer
The Grand Am series is easily the fastest growing racing series in the world right now. Everybody seem's to want in, and their growth is nothing short of phenominal. IMO, they have a fantastic, simple formula, that I believe can work for the IRL to. Both series are similar, in that they offer alot of the same things, passing, lead changes, and wheel-to-wheel action where many cars have a chance to win.

Could this be the answer to the IRL's engine woes, and the ever increasing costs of OW racing?

Read below for GARRA's simple, successful formula:


An Affordable Race car

When the Grand American staff sat down to develop rules for the Daytona Prototypes, their first priority was to design a car that would be affordable for privateer teams, not just multi-billion dollar auto manufacturers. By restricting the use of exotic materials and relying on proven technologies, a race-winning Daytona Prototype can be manufactured for less than $400,000 - a substantial savings compared to other sports car formulas.

Technical Overview

The Daytona Prototype is a flat-bottomed, closed cockpit, mid-engine coupe with a complete frame (non-stressed engine). It uses independent suspension with adjustable shock absorbers. Each car is aerodynamically designed to be as efficient as possible in speed and downforce, using a mandated, common to all cars, rear wing.

Engines

Engines for Daytona Prototypes are available from production car manufacturers from throughout the world. To be legal, an engine must be submitted to Grand American for approval. Engines are tested and inspected to determine the power characteristics and internal components, and then that engine is approved for competition with the configuration established during testing. All engine components are available to any competitor who wishes to use them. This guarantees each competitor a chance to run near the front of the pack and race fans the prospect of exciting, close racing from start to finish.

Ah YES, bring on the SLOMOBILES.

[gttouring]

there is hope here- the fastest growing series are the enduro racers
GrandAm seems to have the cheap though

[917Addicted]

Yeah right... There's soooooooooooooo many people attending those races (considering its pace and uggliness, I don't blame them).

[mountainstar]

Grand Am doesn't pull the crowds or the television. ALMS GT is the future. People want to see Aston, Ferrari, Corvette, Maserati, etc.

I don't think there are many successful ideas the IRL can grab from Grand Am to help it's situation, except for NASCAR backing....

[GP Racer]

The idea of my thread wasn't to get into Grand Am bashing, and whether its good racing or bad, or how many people watch, etc.,etc.. It was to present their engine program, and the formula that has them growing so fast, and to see if it could be adopted to the IRL.

Reading the paragraph on their engine specs, makes me think that it could be a perfect way for the IRL to go about an engine program. It's cheap, it gets the engines back under team control, gives almost any manufacturer a way to run in the IRL, provides a way for most cars to run up front, and most importantly, would get the IRL out from under the manufacturers thumbs. I believe that the engines that GA uses now could easily be made with the greater HP needed for the IRL.

It seems to be working for GA, and thats why I brought them up.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by GP Racer
The idea of my thread wasn't to get into Grand Am bashing, and whether its good racing or bad, or how many people watch, etc.,etc.. It was to present their engine program, and the formula that has them growing so fast, and to see if it could be adopted to the IRL.

Reading the paragraph on their engine specs, makes me think that it could be a perfect way for the IRL to go about an engine program. It's cheap, it gets the engines back under team control, gives almost any manufacturer a way to run in the IRL, provides a way for most cars to run up front, and most importantly, would get the IRL out from under the manufacturers thumbs. I believe that the engines that GA uses now could easily be made with the greater HP needed for the IRL.

It seems to be working for GA, and thats why I brought them up.

GP:
It is a spec. series and the last thing Indy needs is spec. racers.
If they did they could just use the Nissan engines, running in the---well what ever they call that series.
Bob

[climb]

Agreed. I think that G.Am strongest point is their link to NASCAR.

[GP Racer]

How is GA anymore of a spec series than what the IRL is now?

GA has 5 different engine's now involved, all sporting completely different types of engines. Ford has a modular 4 valve V8 eng., GM, a 2 valve push-rod V8 engine, Porsche a small flat 6, and BMW and Lexus sport V8's also. All the engines are approved for use by GA, under specs that are probably as tight as what Chevy, Toyota, and Honda have to deal with under IRL spec rules.

And don't get me started on chassis manufacturers, of which there are 7, along with 3 gearbox builders.

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but I havn't heard a good reason yet, for why this couldn't work in the IRL...

[Uesque]

Originally posted by GP Racer

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but I havn't heard a good reason yet, for why this couldn't work in the IRL...

Lack of cost containment is what's killing open wheel racing, and the tight controls of GA make it much more enticing to teams, and more importantly, sponsors. Applying that model to either of the OW series, could do nothing but help. Less cost equals more opportunity for sponsorship.

I know the cars are less than aesthetically pleasing, but they've got Milka Duno. She's purrrrty.

[Snrub]

I don't feel I'm entirely clear on why you think the Grand Am engine formula would fix the IRL's problems. (probably because I don't know enough about how Grand AM & Nascar do things) I thought that the reason Nascar engines stay fairly close is because of the defacto "don't go out of the box" rules? Hense costs stay within reason and things are close.

I don't think they could use pure large displacement stock blocks. For one the fully assembled, wet LS1/6 weighs 497lbs. (granted it could be stripped down a little bit) It's essentially prohibitive for open wheel racing, particularly ovals. I do think it's possible using a "stock block" 3.0-3.5L V6.


I've never understood people's objections to taking away the manufacturer's substantial role in the outcome of racing. Was the 2004 season better for it being Honda vs. Toyota or would you have rather seen DRIVERS from all of the IRL's strong teams competing against each other? In other words instead of 4 AGR, Rice, Fernandez with a chance to win, wouldn't it have been better if you also had even just Schekter, 2 Penske and 2 Ganassi drivers in the mix? Ultimately I think manufacturers are happier when they have to do less, get the same credit and always have positive marketing exposure.

[jhansen]

Quote from Snrub: "Ultimately I think manufacturers are happier when they have to do less, get the same credit and always have positive marketing exposure."


That is probably partially true. That is certainly the case in NASCAR. But nothing can replace an arena where the manufacturer can defeat the competition, due to their superiority. The primary problem with manufacturer involvement is that they do not stay long term due to a variety of reasons.

What I find interesting is that some fans want what essentially looks and feels like a spec series without the actual "spec" tag. They find that term degrading. GP Racer is correct that Grand Am is not a "spec" series. But it certainly embodies those ideas, as does NASCAR. If you really want it to come down to drivers and teams, then you should be advocating one chassis, one motor, one tire, etc. But for some reason, that is not what the people are screaming for.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by GP Racer
How is GA anymore of a spec series than what the IRL is now?

GA has 5 different engine's now involved, all sporting completely different types of engines. Ford has a modular 4 valve V8 eng., GM, a 2 valve push-rod V8 engine, Porsche a small flat 6, and BMW and Lexus sport V8's also. All the engines are approved for use by GA, under specs that are probably as tight as what Chevy, Toyota, and Honda have to deal with under IRL spec rules.

And don't get me started on chassis manufacturers, of which there are 7, along with 3 gearbox builders.

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but I havn't heard a good reason yet, for why this couldn't work in the IRL...

And none of these engines can exceed the SPECIFIED AMOUNT OF HORSE POWER ALLOWED.
You are correct that the IRL is becoming more and more of a spec. series everday.
Just as GARRA, now requires the LS engines be taken down to 305 inches, a size at which no production engine exists, IRL has also forced anyone who wants to play to continually abandone what works for newer smaller engines. To fit the specs.
Outside of banning the turbines, USAC stuck with, andy changes were for increasing NA size to equate blown engines which due to the the blower become a larger displacement, the same rules from '65-79.

Chevy did not like the rules changes at Indy that forced them to continually change engines, why would they like it any better if GARRA rules were adapted. Remember all the Chevy teams have to change internals, an extremely expensive undertaking for next year, in GARRA.(there is no thing as a Pontiac engine, they are either Chevy, Buick or Cadillac.)

Why change one spec. series for another.
It would appear that some of you fellow poster were not following racing when rules were minimul, there were no specs. to be met, only limits not to exceed. It was unrestricted inbetween the extremes.
Bob

[Team Owner]

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
GP:
It is a spec. series and the last thing Indy needs is spec. racers.
If they did they could just use the Nissan engines, running in the---well what ever they call that series.
Bob

MIPS Menards Infiniti Pro Series, and it will race twice at Indy this year.

[GP Racer]

Well, NASCAR, the IRL, and GARRA are all similar in that, all engines must come in at a specified HP. Gone forever from IndyCar racing and "Stock Cars", is the unrestricted days of yesteryear. Today, these series advocate close racing, and parity among the cars, no matter the manufacturer.

GARRA however has a system that can put alot of different engine marqes in a series, that guarantees good PR for their names, such as Lexus and Pontiac got this season, without spending any real money. And most importantly, it puts the engines back in the teams control. As a team owner, you can pretty much pick any engine, that can be built to the series spec, and run it.

Snrub, I'm beginning to think that it's almost impossible for a series to "think outside of the box" today, as you said. Because unrestricted specs mean unrestricted costs, where the rich will succeed and the rest will fail. Thats why I think that NASCAR, and GARRA are so successful in todays world, and why series with unrestricted specs, like F1, and ALMS with the runaway Audi, are struggling.

[jhansen]

Yes, and we saw a lot of victories from the "have nots" in the IRL, Grand Am, and NASCAR. It was virtually impossible to predict that a Honda powered car would win the IRL title this year. And nobody would have predicted that Ganassi would have come out on top in Grand Am. Thus the term, "perceived" competition. The haves will always come out on top. You can make it tough on them, but they're still the ones to beat. They can pour the extra money from their larger budgets to find that extra tenth of a second.

But again I ask, if you want the ultimate close racing, why not just make it a spec car, tire and engine?

[Snrub]

But nothing can replace an arena where the manufacturer can defeat the competition, due to their superiority. The primary problem with manufacturer involvement is that they do not stay long term due to a variety of reasons.

True, but there's a lot of risk and a new manufacturer comming into a series means outspending the current king of the hill by a huge margin until you're better. Note Toyota and to a lesser extent Honda's recent F1 experiences. For every manufacturer that have fought to the top, there have been 10 that have failed.

Originally posted by GP Racer Well, NASCAR, the IRL, and GARRA are all similar in that, all engines must come in at a specified HP.

I must be missing something. I thought in Nascar the individual teams/builders built their engines for max HP and while they weren't radically reinventing the engines, they were trying to get the most HP? In Grand Am, I've seen some races where the Pontiacs seem to have a HP advantage. I don't think I need to mention the IRL.

I'm beginning to think that it's almost impossible for a series to "think outside of the box" today...

I think you're right, but I was specifically thinking of how things were set out for Toyota when they were working on going into Trucks. They were told they were not to exceed the dimensions of any of the current engines in any way. They were also told that if they designed an engine that was grossly supperior they'd be reigned in and all their effort would be wasted.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Well, NASCAR, the IRL, and GARRA are all similar in that, all engines must come in at a specified HP. Gone forever from IndyCar racing and "Stock Cars", is the unrestricted days of yesteryear. Today, these series advocate close racing, and parity among the cars, no matter the manufacturer.

GARRA however has a system that can put alot of different engine marqes in a series, that guarantees good PR for their names, such as Lexus and Pontiac got this season, without spending any real money. And most importantly, it puts the engines back in the teams control. As a team owner, you can pretty much pick any engine, that can be built to the series spec, and run it.

Snrub, I'm beginning to think that it's almost impossible for a series to "think outside of the box" today, as you said. Because unrestricted specs mean unrestricted costs, where the rich will succeed and the rest will fail. Thats why I think that NASCAR, and GARRA are so successful in todays world, and why series with unrestricted specs, like F1, and ALMS with the runaway Audi, are struggling.

GP:
IF you are familiar with what goes into building an engine, to build a competitive throttled with restictors is incredibly labour intensive and therefore far more expensive than designing an improved cylinder head for greater power.

Close racing because of BS rules only impresses gullible lemmings and ignorant newbies.
F-1 is not unrestricted; any restricted series caters to those with the most money and connections.
Have you ever wondered why some NASCAR teams can suddenly go from front runners, to also rans, when the rules did not change.
If the cars are all running to the same rules, then it would be impossible for a front runner to never be a front runner.
The rules don't allow any improvement, so any gain made by another team has to come from NASCAR tech. boys allownces, or inside info.

Gone forever from IndyCar racing and "Stock Cars", is the unrestricted days of yesteryear. Today, these series advocate close racing, and parity among the cars, no matter the manufacturer.

If you think this is actually true, then you had better get used to the idea that motorsports are going to sputter to a stop, except at regional levels.
Factories do not, ever, participate because they can, they do it to prove a point. Screw them often, or long, enough by not letting them prove their point, and they can again, as they have done in the past, cut any series loose and not give a damn.
It has been on several boards already that NASCAR is starting to annoy Detroit more than a little. If Detroit leaves NASCAR the sponsorship will leave with them and the house of cards will fall.
CART went from premier series to nothing in ten years, if you do not think that can happen to NASCAR, you simply have not been around long enough.