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Old 4 Nov 2010, 22:24 (Ref:2785134)   #26
wnut
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If RBR have not learned to back Webber yet then Alonso will be WDC!

The whole point of team orders is to prevent your drivers working out ways to lose races when your cars are running 1 and 2 and are the class of the field.
We may hate team orders, but they obviously have an advantage.
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 03:51 (Ref:2785218)   #27
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Red Bull have (allegedly) tried to do the right thing all year by (perceivably) giving both drivers equal treatment.
Say what??? Only when Webber is leading, do they give equal treatment.
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 06:59 (Ref:2785245)   #28
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Say what??? Only when Webber is leading, do they give equal treatment.
I think you are being a little unfair here. Following the wing incident and Dieter's clear explanation to his team of what the rules of racing are as he sees them; for which he must receive huge credit; the treatment of the drivers has been scrupulously fair.
If Vettel was in Webber's situation and Helmutt was calling the shots, then Webber would now be "helping" his team mate.
However now that parity was managements decision, parity is what Webber has!

If numb nuts hadn't thrown his car at the wall, several times, he would be world champion now! Applies to both of them!

Anyway let's hope Webber gets it done!
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 11:30 (Ref:2785304)   #29
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Well, Button has usually been so far off Hamilton's pace that this would probably happen... The problem for Red Bull is that their drivers are so close in terms of performance. If they have not been crashing into each other, or arguing over front wings, they have been taking points off each other... Something Hamilton (with Button) would not have to deal with.
I think Button and Hamilton race smarter than Vettel and Webber though. Remember Turkey? They managed to have a very close race for the lead without having an accident, and brought their cars home in 1st and 2nd. Vettel and Webber tried to have a race for the lead and wiped each other out.
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 11:38 (Ref:2785306)   #30
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Well, they did bang wheels going into T1. If the McLaren was as fragile as the Newey RBR then there would have been retirements for McL in Turkey
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 12:00 (Ref:2785311)   #31
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Well, they did bang wheels going into T1. If the McLaren was as fragile as the Newey RBR then there would have been retirements for McL in Turkey
On the contrary, it was amazing that even one RBR got to the finish after what was a very solid collision between the two in Turkey, the Red Bull has been fragile in terms of reliability but as far as driving away from collisions is concerned it's been the Mclarens that have been out of the race after the slightest tap this season. Reliability and crash worthiness are two very different things.
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 12:24 (Ref:2785321)   #32
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If Red Bull had backed Webber for the championship after Belgium (As Ferrari would have done) then yes RBR would have already wrapped up the drivers title. So it's a pretty fair comment I'd say.

The fact that RBR still refuse to use team orders seems to point to the fact as I've thought (And probably many other since Turkey) that if Vettel can't win the title they'd rather not win it. (Although I find this staggering, I don't run a multi billion dollar business based on marketing)
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 12:48 (Ref:2785333)   #33
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Be a bit of an irony if RBR turn their noses up at this WDC and never manage to win another one!

My feeling is that a WDC is rather precious and rare and you do everything you can to make them happen!
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 13:07 (Ref:2785338)   #34
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I dont get why peole have been saying, including Ferrari Team Principal Stefano Domenicali, that if Ferrari had have had the car/advantage that RBR have then they would have won the title already.
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/164735/...ready_won.html
How can you say that?

There are so may ifs and buts, why even bother making comments like that.
Because this was said by Christian Horner FIRST:

"It would be frustrating because we've obviously worked under the auspices that team orders have been illegal," Horner told BBC radio.

Domenicali was just repsonding in kind after an obvious snide remark.

I dearly hope Alonso wraps it up in Brazil if only to fuel the whinger's fires even more!

Forza Ferrari!!!
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Old 5 Nov 2010, 13:18 (Ref:2785345)   #35
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If Red Bull had backed Webber for the championship after Belgium (As Ferrari would have done) then yes RBR would have already wrapped up the drivers title. So it's a pretty fair comment I'd say.
There is one major difference here, Fernando has been quicker than Massa every race, when it comes to Red Bull, the guy you would like to see backed, Mark, has been slower than his team mate.

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The fact that RBR still refuse to use team orders seems to point to the fact as I've thought (And probably many other since Turkey) that if Vettel can't win the title they'd rather not win it. (Although I find this staggering, I don't run a multi billion dollar business based on marketing)
McLaren are still giving Jenson his shot, dispite being 42 points behind.
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Old 6 Nov 2010, 03:47 (Ref:2785668)   #36
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There is one major difference here, Fernando has been quicker than Massa every race, when it comes to Red Bull, the guy you would like to see backed, Mark, has been slower than his team mate.
True, but isn't that the point of team orders ??? To allow the driver behind, ie: slower driver, to finish ahead.

In the race in question Massa was faster than Alonso and had to give way !!!
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Old 6 Nov 2010, 04:16 (Ref:2785670)   #37
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Actually, he was slower, he just happened to be ahead. Thats why he had to give way. "Felipe, Fernando. Is. Faster. Than. You"
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Old 6 Nov 2010, 07:38 (Ref:2785691)   #38
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Originally Posted by Trev Campbell View Post
The fact that RBR still refuse to use team orders seems to point to the fact as I've thought (And probably many other since Turkey) that if Vettel can't win the title they'd rather not win it. (Although I find this staggering, I don't run a multi billion dollar business based on marketing)
Been thinking about this, if Vettel wins the race, Webber comes second and Alonso doesn't finish (possible, the Ferrari was the frail looking car yesterday) they all go into the final race with Webber leading the championship by 7 points.

Surely thats close enough to still give Vettel his shot. As i said before, McLaren are still backing Jenson and he's 42 points behind.

I have to say, i don't like team orders, but when the Hockenhein thing happened, Alonso looked out of the title fight and Massa was even further behind. Both McLaren and Red Bull drivers were well and truely in the title fight. So, as much as i don't like it, they had to back Alonso, also, like it or not, with the exception of that one race (unfortunately for Ferrari) Massa had been nowhere near Alonso in terms of speed or position in ages. (with the exception of the start at Silverstone where the had a coming together!)
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Old 6 Nov 2010, 12:55 (Ref:2785771)   #39
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Pointless as Domenicali's comments are, I think there's a grain of truth to them. Red Bull and their drivers have thrown away an unprecedented number of front-row starts. I'd like to think that Alonso or Hamilton would've had it wrapped up by now if they'd had such a car advantage.

But as Selby said, if you're auntie had a willy, she'd be your uncle.
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Old 10 Nov 2010, 07:35 (Ref:2787922)   #40
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What I meant was at least Hamilton crashed trying to have a battle with someone rather than just dropping it with no help from anyone else. It's not an exact science of a comment, but it has a little bit of merit.
Well since he made a driver error in Spa when he was completely by himself, Hamilton has made a driver error in every race since then, which I think is five in a row now.

Maybe the McLaren has not been handling as well as the other two top cars, but at the end of the day you have to drive what the car can do. Getting on the radio, to whinge about it to the team, doesn't make it go faster.
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Old 10 Nov 2010, 09:39 (Ref:2787967)   #41
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Actually, he was slower, he just happened to be ahead. Thats why he had to give way. "Felipe, Fernando. Is. Faster. Than. You"
You can't take a message for massa to let Alonso past as meaning Alonso was faster. What do u want them to say, 'Can you let Alonso past because we want to back him' It was after all meant to be a (poorly) coded message.
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Old 10 Nov 2010, 09:55 (Ref:2787973)   #42
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Hamilton has managed to crash into as many drivers (Massa and Webber) as Vettel (Webber and Button) and Webber (Hamilton and Kovalinen) have, so that one goes out of the window. The only ones (of the top 5) who haven't crashed into anyone, iirc, are Alonso and Button, So Stefano has a point on that one, although Ferrari have to look at themselves for their engine problems and Alonso did crash on his own in saturday free practice which killed his Monaco race. McLaren could say that had Jenson been quicker he'd have wrapped up the title and Vettels reliability is a definate from Red Bulls point of view and Webber took himself out at Korea.

Fact is, all driver or teams or driver teams combo have made mistakes and they are in the position they are in now.


It has not been as bad as the Massa v Hamilton 2008 championship...but I dont understand how people can say that other drivers would have sewn up the championship by now if they were in an RBR.

As you pointed out the only guy that has been largely mistake free has been slower and that to me is a bigger concern. (Button)
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