Peugeot 908 discussion

[Tom908V12]

According to AutoHebdo, official presentation of team, car crew and program scheduled for mid january

[gttouring]

I like the smoke screen pug has set up While the 90x will be smaller with less power likely even Mulsanne Mike shows the above car intake and only one side and one turbo inlet so what can be happening? Too much of the 908 is still in place. This may be a drive train mule stressing the motor and trans.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I like the smoke screen pug has set up While the 90x will be smaller with less power likely even Mulsanne Mike shows the above car intake and only one side and one turbo inlet so what can be happening? Too much of the 908 is still in place. This may be a drive train mule stressing the motor and trans.

No we are certain that the car in the pictures a 90X Test tub, fitted with a few parts of 908 style bodywork (ei. most of the front).
The finished 90X will hopefully look a lot different, but honestly i don't think much more than the front will change.

[Simmi]

I'm not even sure the front will change. As much as I wanted a new visual appearance. They've had it so sorted the last couple of years, and as people have uncovered, there are subtle changes. Obviously it stands to reason they could have found some progress in this area in the windtunnel between July and Sebring. I hope you are right CTD.

[knighty]

In readiness of Peugeots new hybrid system, I have just been taking a browse through the 2010 hybrid regs (do they carry over to 2011???) and they are basically very simple, "do not use more than 1,000,000 Joules (watts) of energy between braking points".........you can use all 4 wheels to generate the power, but only the rear wheels to power the car, no "push to pass" sysem is allowed......which kinda makes sense why peugeot now have bigger front tyres as they are both braking and generating, but not powering?????.....

so I'm then thinking how does that translate into additional power at the wheels from the ACO KERS system........as a guide the 2009 F1 KERS system was 400,000 Joules storage and dumped via a 60Kw (82 hp) motor on the rear axle........so if we pro-rata that up to the ACO allowed 1 MJ system I'm getting 150Kw (201hp) extra power on the rear wheels - WTF!.....I have run this past a colleague at work for a second opinion, no response yet........am I missing something here??.......an extra 201 hp on top of the existing 550bhp engine (750hp) is going to make any hybrid car a missile - cripes :-/

[gwyllion]

For 2011 the hybrid rules will change slightly. See http://www.lemans.org/en/news/2011-L...TIONS_628.html for the main ideas. Only 500 kJ instead of 1000 kJ between braking points and the KERS energy can also be released on the front wheels (like the hybrid 911), but not on both axles.

I don't understand your calculation. Energy = power x time. It is up to Peugeot to decide how to release the 500 kJ of KERS energy. 500 kW (670 hp) during 1 s, 150 kW (201 hp) during 3.33 s, 50 kW (67 hp) during 10 s, 25 kW (34 hp) during 20 s, ...

To give an idea the Peugeot 908HY had a 60 kW electric motor and the Zytek Performance Hybrid system uses a 40 kW electric motor. The Porsche 911 GT3R Hybrid has 2 60 kW electric motors, which can release KERS energy "during approximately 6-8 s"; so around 1000 kJ can be stored in the flywheel battery.

As a final comparison, the hybrid Toyota Supra HV-R that won the Tokashi 24-Hour race in 2007, had 2 10 kW (in-wheel) electric motors on the front and a 150 kW rear axle mounted electric motor. That setup (which is not allowed by the ACO because it drives 3 wheels electrically) would release the 500 kJ in around 3 sec.

[Tom908V12]

Olivier Quesnel re-opens the doors of a possibility for multiple rally champion Sébastien Loeb to drive for Peugeot the 90X at Le Mans next year(interview in "24 Heures")

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Tom908V12

Olivier Quesnel re-opens the doors of a possibility for multiple rally champion Sébastien Loeb to drive for Peugeot the 90X at Le Mans next year(interview in "24 Heures")

Very nice. Surely he would need a lot of seat time to bring himself back up to speed. Maybe he could go with Oreca? Although I'm sure Playstation will play a factor.

[gwyllion]

Loeb will retire from WRC at the end of 2011. Perhaps LMP racing will be his next year.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Loeb will retire from WRC at the end of 2011. Perhaps LMP racing will be his next year.

That isn't actually confirmed unless he's said something very recently. It did come out in the press that he would quit when his deal expired, but he recently said in an interview for the UK coverage he would see how he felt after 2011 before deciding.

The guarantee of a 90X may help that process, but at the same time he may see a couple of new manufacturers arrive and want to keep playing in the WRC. I personally hope he goes he really has nothing left to prove, and it would benefit both sports IMO.

[gucom]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I don't understand your calculation. Energy = power x time. It is up to Peugeot to decide how to release the 500 kJ of KERS energy. 500 kW (670 hp) during 1 s, 150 kW (201 hp) during 3.33 s, 50 kW (67 hp) during 10 s, 25 kW (34 hp) during 20 s, ...

This makes me wonder, would it be possible / allowed to introduce, say, a GPS-based system that decides how FAST the 500kJ are deployed? If I remember correctly, these 500kJ are "re-deployable" after every time the car has been braking for at least 2 seconds.

If you imagine the run from Indianapolis to Arnage at Le Mans, would it be possible to make a system that knows where the car is, and knows that there's only a short straight ahead, so the all energy will be deployed in, say, 3 seconds rather than 10? And when you get to the longer straights, it spreads the energy out over a longer time period?

I'm sure it could be engineered actually, but would it be allowed?

[edit] given the rather clear topic title, maybe it's best to move this question elsewhere?

[Simmi]

Haha the 90X thread again falls victim to OT technological debates!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Simmi

That isn't actually confirmed unless he's said something very recently. It did come out in the press that he would quit when his deal expired, but he recently said in an interview for the UK coverage he would see how he felt after 2011 before deciding.

google for "Loeb retire 2011" and you will find quotes from a recent interview. E.g., http://www.crash.net/world+rally/new..._to_ogier.html

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

For 2011 the hybrid rules will change slightly. See http://www.lemans.org/en/news/2011-L...TIONS_628.html for the main ideas. Only 500 kJ instead of 1000 kJ between braking points and the KERS energy can also be released on the front wheels (like the hybrid 911), but not on both axles.

I don't understand your calculation. Energy = power x time. It is up to Peugeot to decide how to release the 500 kJ of KERS energy. 500 kW (670 hp) during 1 s, 150 kW (201 hp) during 3.33 s, 50 kW (67 hp) during 10 s, 25 kW (34 hp) during 20 s, ...

To give an idea the Peugeot 908HY had a 60 kW electric motor and the Zytek Performance Hybrid system uses a 40 kW electric motor. The Porsche 911 GT3R Hybrid has 2 60 kW electric motors, which can release KERS energy "during approximately 6-8 s"; so around 1000 kJ can be stored in the flywheel battery.

As a final comparison, the hybrid Toyota Supra HV-R that won the Tokashi 24-Hour race in 2007, had 2 10 kW (in-wheel) electric motors on the front and a 150 kW rear axle mounted electric motor. That setup (which is not allowed by the ACO because it drives 3 wheels electrically) would release the 500 kJ in around 3 sec.

Hi Gwyllion - my calculation was basically a pro-rata'd (up to 1MJ) F1 KERS system 400KJ/60Kw (82bhp motor) over 6.66 seconds, a bit gash, but just for a first glance look quite a reasonable assumption........your completley correct, it really depends at what rate peugeot release the energy, particularly what electric motor they use, so the F1 system is not a bad starting point.........using your Toyota example above, on the basis of 500KJ (2100 ACO rule) and a single 150Kw motor for 3.33 second bursts between reasonable braking distances, it still sounds like another 201hp on top of the engines existing LMP1 engines power - gulp!

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Tom908V12

Olivier Quesnel re-opens the doors of a possibility for multiple rally champion Sébastien Loeb to drive for Peugeot the 90X at Le Mans next year(interview in "24 Heures")

That's sort of a winter recurring joke now, I don't think it will ever happen. Loeb surely is a decent road racer but I don't think his road racing qualities cut it to make the Peugeot works squad.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Haha the 90X thread again falls victim to OT technological debates!

Hmmm. Yes, some OT stuff will have to happen as it's almost impossible to keep a thread entirely 'clean' of generic issues - it's when posters start attempting to take over a thread with those issues that we'll step in.....

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by gucom

This makes me wonder, would it be possible / allowed to introduce, say, a GPS-based system that decides how FAST the 500kJ are deployed? If I remember correctly, these 500kJ are "re-deployable" after every time the car has been braking for at least 2 seconds.

If you imagine the run from Indianapolis to Arnage at Le Mans, would it be possible to make a system that knows where the car is, and knows that there's only a short straight ahead, so the all energy will be deployed in, say, 3 seconds rather than 10? And when you get to the longer straights, it spreads the energy out over a longer time period?

I'm sure it could be engineered actually, but would it be allowed?

[edit] given the rather clear topic title, maybe it's best to move this question elsewhere?

Your call - like where?

[knighty]

please accept a thousand apologies for being a technological geek......in future I will only discuss the predicted paint scheme and potential driver pairings - cough!

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

.....in future I will only discuss the predicted paint scheme and potential driver pairings - cough!

Not exactly your forte........stick to the technical stuff please mate!

For what it's worth, I think many of us thoroughly enjoy your input and the insight it gives us. Interesting stuff, generally, and explained in layman's terms, which makes it easy for non-techies such as myself to understand.

I'm sure there's a 2011 LMP engine regs thread somewhere. I'll give it a bump and switch the KERS posts onto it.

Ayse, perhaps we merge that thread with your new diesel thread?

Isn't housekeeping fun..........

[CTD]

We need to keep the technical stuff in here too, otherwise this forum would be useless as no real facts would ever be discussed .

[Tom908V12]

Originally Posted by Acid09

That's sort of a winter recurring joke now, I don't think it will ever happen. Loeb surely is a decent road racer but I don't think his road racing qualities cut it to make the Peugeot works squad.

You wrong, here
Loeb finished 2nd with Pescarolo in 2006, and took part to long distance tests in the 908 last year(and impressed Quesnel, Famin,...)

To me he's ready, if he wants, to be part of the team at Le Mans

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Ayse, perhaps we merge that thread with your new diesel thread?

Isn't housekeeping fun..........

For sure!

Originally Posted by CTD

We need to keep the technical stuff in here too, otherwise this forum would be useless as no real facts would ever be discussed .

Absolutely agree - provided it retains some link with the original topic there's no problem at all. We appreciate that some members are more.... 'inspired' by technicality - and that's great.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Tom908V12

You wrong, here
Loeb finished 2nd with Pescarolo in 2006, and took part to long distance tests in the 908 last year(and impressed Quesnel, Famin,...)

To me he's ready, if he wants, to be part of the team at Le Mans

Did he impress them? That sounds like PR talk to me...I know he didn't impress the Red Bull/Torro Rosso guys when he tested F1.

And finishing 2nd in a privateer car against only one works competitor is a completely different ball game than being part of a works outfit with eight other drivers who have substantial Formula One/road racing experience.

It would probably be a very sweet deal from a marketing point of view but I don't really think he belongs there. As Raikkonnen shows, Rallying and road racing is very different... and as much as Raikkonnen is a so-so rally driver, from what I´ve seen and heard Loeb is a so-so road racer. Certainly good enough for Pescarolo but not for Peugeot..

[Simmi]

Quote from Bruno Famin on the 90X today:

The 908 is still the reference for the category in terms of pure performance," Famin said. "There was no need for us to completely change the fundamentals of the car. We wanted to keep a closed car for safety reasons. Then when you have a closed car with the same livery as the 908, it can look very similar. For the time being, we're focusing on the end of the 908 this weekend. We'll talk about the 90X later on.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...rday-notebook/

[Tom908V12]

Now it's clear, 908 and 90X won't be physically that different