Rossi is boring

[Blue]

Originally posted by Gerrit
The question is, how long will those manufacturers be able to afford it all? The smaller ones won't be in for long. Ducati make a net profit of $10 million according to their own figures

Cannot believe Ducati make only $10m a fy. Their bikes are expensive! They make very very good bike, so I don't think they have to rely on wsbk to boost their sales. although the sucess in wsbk is definitely helping them image-wise.

[f1manoz]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the one thing that keeps these manufacturers in the sport, as profits from sales is not the only thing: sponsorship.

Imagine how much money is poured into Ducati in the WSBK and Honda in the MotoGP class? Millions upon millions of dollars, as long as the team is relatively successful.

Repsol and West with Honda in the MotoGP would be paying millions to have their product advertised on TV.

As long as sponsors keep paying the bills, teams will not worry about expenses.

[asha]

i'm with F1manoz on this one!
"if you build it they will come"

[Gerrit]

The financial figures for Ducati come from Ducati's own press release, and I assume Ducati know their own financial state of affairs.
As for sponsorship, Big Tobacco is on its way out. Rightly or wrongly, their sponsorship is being legislated out of the sports world. So in a few years, West, Gauloises and Marlboro money will be a thing of the past.
The point is, why would companies such as Repsol, or any other sponsor for that matter, suddenly be willing to spend MUCH more than they have hitherto? Will they suddenly get treble the TV time they had last year? No. Coverage is already at a maximum, with live broadcasting of qualifying and races by Eurosport here in Europe. The only way to get more time is by broadcasting the free practice sessions as well, and that only gets two hours extra.
Last year, Repsol sponsored Honda to the tune of $4 million, for Rossi, Criville and Ukawa. For this season, Honda demanded no less than 12 million- for Rossi and Ukawa. treble the cash, but one bike and rider LESS! Do Repsol get more coverage than they did, more TV time? Hardly.
The amount of sponsorship money required will be staggering, and it simply isn't there for motorcycle racing. Racing four-strokes won't change that. What makes it more attractive for sponsors? They are businessmen first and foremost, and for a LOT more money they will want a LOT extra, which the sport is unable to provide.
And no, I am not against racing four-strokes per se. What I am against is rules that are NOT the same for everybody, which they should be and have been for more than 50 years, regardless of engine type. So 990 cc for two-strokes as well, not just for four-strokes. Or back to the old rules, 500 cc for everybody.

[f1manoz]

Originally posted by Gerrit
What I am against is rules that are NOT the same for everybody, which they should be and have been for more than 50 years, regardless of engine type. So 990 cc for two-strokes as well, not just for four-strokes. Or back to the old rules, 500 cc for everybody.

I agree. I reckon we should have a whole range of bikes on there - 750s, 1000s and 500s plus whatever else they can chuck in.

However, they've got to maintain an equilibrium between all the bikes to make sure no one type of machine gets a clear, and perhaps unfair, advantage that would make other manufacturers resort to either spending millions on developing a whole new bike, or simply pulling out because they are not competitive enough.

[ChrisUSA]

Gerrit i agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. It's a joke to think that the whole world is going to say "oh, they're racing 4strokes in grand prix, i think i will watch it now" and the extra money will come pouring in. this is actually a brilliant plan by Honda by duping the other manufacturers into agreeing with the new 4stroke rules. because now Honda will raise the level to heights unaffordable by anyone except themselves.
the beloved 2strokes are putting up a valiant fight, but the RC211V has just too much motor. the 2strokes can spot the 4 cylinder 4strokes double the displacement and still dominate, but that extra cylinder of the RC is just too much. i fully expect a mulit-cylinder war from the others, because it may be a cheaper route than trying to spin unheard of revs out of their 4 cylinders to keep up with the 211V. look for 5, 6 or even 8 cylinder bikes to debut(before they all run out of money that is)
by the way, i'm absolutely sure Rossi would be leading the points right now on an NSR.

[Gerrit]

Equilibrium? Yes, when it applies to everybody. But it doesn't. One reason given for the 990 cc limit for four-strokes is that it allows (in theory) all engine concepts to make at least 200 hp, from twins up. This takes into account rpm, displacement and BMEP. To compensate for not being able to make the same hp as engines with more cylinders, the twins and triples get a weight bonus etc.
Now that's all funny..... if it is so important to be able to make 200 hp, why does that not apply to two-stroke twins and triples? Why no 650 two-stroke twins, or 575 triples?
At present two-strokes develop around 190-200 hp for the V-4s. This is achieved by a BMEP that has progressed from 25% of that of four-strokes at the end of the 1940s to around 80% at present. Four-stroke BMEP, in marked contrast, has been largely stagnant since the end of the 1950s. Jack Williams of AJS achieved 200 psi with the final version of the AJS 7R, but this has rarely been reached since. Keith Duckworth of Cosworth achieved a peak torque BMEP of around 230 psi (peak hp BMEP is less), but that figure has not been equalled, let alone surpassed. In fact, BMEP has actually FALLEN!!!!!!
All power gains in F1 have been achieved by rpms only, with the latest BMW engines spinning at almost 19,000 rpm.
Compare that to two-strokes. Kawasaki claimed 82 hp at 9,500 rpm for the 1971 H1-RA. The KR3 develops 175 hp at 12,200 rpm. RPM increase is only partly responsible for the enormous increase- the main part is thanks to better breathing, i.e. increased BMEP.
So, in order to be competitive, four-strokes require more rpms. HRC tried this with the NR500, and failed dismally. The only alternative was increase engine size. Kevin Cameron wrote an article for Motocourse some years ago, and calculated that about 700 cc would give equality. Okay, since 700 cc is not a recognized engine size, make it a full 750. But the four-strokes are given 990 cc, which guarantees (on paper) power superiority. We see most of the four-strokes developing around 220 hp, and more easily possible by cranking up the rpms. Equilibrium? No way!

[ChrisUSA]

Gerrit, even though i regard Kevin Cameron as somewhat of a god, i highly doubt a 700cc 4stroke could compete with the 500's in MotoGP. after seeing Kato hold off Ukawa and his monster V5 down the MAINSTRAIGHT of Jerez, it just goes to show what extent a 4stroke engine must go to in order to compete with or defeat a 500. granted there is a weight advantage for the strokers, but i'd say parity lies somewhere around 850-900cc's. all bets are off though if you start adding extra cylinders to the 4strokes

[senniha]

Originally posted by asha
okay okay, this is surely going get people talking!
Yes Rossi is talented,
Yes he has the best team,
Yes he has the best bike
and yes he is BORING!!

There is not much else to say other then its getting to be deadly dull. If it wasn't for Kato in the last race I would have surely fallen asleep, and i dont say this lightly, I'm as fantical as the next person (in here). But really I'm enjoying the 250's and 125's more at the moment.

Rossi you're boring!
Honda give Kato and Lois a 4 stroke NOW because those guys are just as talented!!

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YOU KNOW WHAT BORING IS!, SCHUMACHER IS BORING!!!!

ROSSI! RULES! http://www.rossifiles.com!!

[asha]

so rossi wins again... gee I didn't see that comming

[StuiE]

ill, just dig this up a bit, Sure Rossi is winning every race, but he is not boring, be is sideways and all over the place, while Mark Skaife in V8s is winning everything, he IS boring, cos he isnt sideways or always on the edge...