Future Races

[bjohnsonsmith]

Future Races

The subject of future races always comes up and these two posts from the Round 10: Kohler Grand Prix. Road America, Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin. 24th-26th June, thread highlight that. so I thought a dedicated thread where future races can be discussed wouldn't go a miss.

Originally Posted by Artur

The problem is that they already race at Sonoma, so it would be two races on California and not very far from each other. With a single event on that region it is already hard enough to attract good crowds, imagine two......

I think we should have, at max, a couple of street races and those should be on great layouts. I just loathe races on places that seems half assed and improvized that will only bring endless cautions and difficulty in battling up.

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I'm sure LS would draw a bunch more spectators than Sonoma, in a similar fashion we saw the fans flock to RA.

If the two of them on the schedule is too much, I would drop Sonoma in a heartbeat!

[bjohnsonsmith]

The geographical distance between Laguna Seca and Sonoma could become an issue, regarding attendance, if the the two events were held within weeks of each other. So if there were a return to Laguna Seca where on the calendar would it go?

However, if Laguna Seca were to return, why not coincide it with the Monterey Car Week? The Monterey peninsula, which is nearby to Laguna Seca, hosts the annual Monterey Car Week, which includes events at Laguna Seca and culminates with the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance, which has been held since 1950. Therefore, holding the race during the Monterey Car Week could potentially give IndyCar a ready made crowd.

The potential problem with this though, is the Monterey Car Week takes place around the third week of August, roughly a month away from Sonoma. The question is, would Sonoma be able to attract a big enough crowd, post the Monterey Car Week?

[Coach Ep]

How many spectators has Sonoma drawn (on average) over the last couple of years?

Also I'd like to throw Road Atlanta into the mix! And maybe VIR???

[Purist]

Road Atlanta, and definitely VIR, would have to add debris fencing. Also, there may be particular concerns about that one crest on the back stretch at Road Atlanta.

The FIA might have something to say, since IndyCar has no record of running either of those circuits. Run-off in the latter part of "the Esses" and Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is tight, as well as in "the Snake", Uphill Esses, and Oak Tree at VIR. Also, at the far end of VIR, there is scope for someone to go for a ride like Cameron McConville took at Phillip Island in 2009, which is probably something you'd want to avoid have happening.

[Purist]

I am, by no means, in love with every temporary circuit, but I'm not as averse to them as some, clearly.

Anyway, I thought I'd try to do a ranking, and to humor people, I'll even do a worst list to accompany the best list. I try to balance how interesting the track layout is, how attractive the overall setting is, and how good the racing for these cars has actually been. (On that last one, I'll apologize to Montreal now, but in the CART/ChampCar races there, I saw very little passing. Quite possibly, the DW12 would improve that.)

Best CART/CCWS/ICS Temporary Circuits:
1. Cleveland (both the 1982-89 and 1990-2007 layouts were very good)
2. Vancouver (1994-97, 1999-2004 layout is just below Toronto)
3. Long Beach (1999, 1992-98 and 2000- layouts are just below Surfers Paradise)
4. Sao Paulo (2010-13)
5. Surfers Paradise (1995-2008)
6. Las Vegas (2007)
7. San Jose (2006-07)
8. Toronto (1996-2015)
9. Miami (1995)
10. Belle Isle (1998-2001, 2013-)
11. Tamiami Park (1985-88)
12. Edmonton (2011-12)

Worst CART/CCWS/ICS Temporary Circuits:
1. San Jose (2005)
2. Miami (2003)
3. Las Vegas (1983-84)
4. Houston (2013-14)
5. Baltimore (2011)
6. Belle Isle (2012)
7. Meadowlands (1988-91)
8. Long Beach (1984-87 and 1988-91 layouts)

Toronto has been modified a bit for this year, with the relocation of the pit lane, and I'm guessing that will lead to at least slight realignments in the final couple of corners.

Compared to the 2003 layout, Miami 2002 had the slick parking lot, but didn't have the "ski jump" at the top of the front stretch, nor did it have such an absurdly short lap.

Yes, I think the improvements at San Jose from 2005 to 2006 were that drastic, and the increase in overtaking potential certain was that great.

For 1984-91, Long Beach had a box chicane of one form or another on the back stretch, which basically killed passing anywhere but into Turn 1.

The first iteration of Edmonton certainly wasn't horrible; it was nice, quick, and open. However, it always had more of a street circuit feel and just didn't measure up to Cleveland in terms of overtaking.

Trying to make street circuits into "modified ovals" just isn't a very attractive proposition, as seen with Las Vegas in the '80s and the second iteration of the Meadowlands.

[Purist]

As for a wider picture, the ranking shakes up some when looking at North America, but not specifically major domestic open-wheel racing.

Best NA Temporary Circuits:
1. Cleveland (1982-89 and 1990-2007)
2. Vancouver (1994-97)
3. Montreal (1988-90)
4. Long Beach (1975-81 and 1999)
5. Las Vegas (2007)
6. Belle Isle (1998-2001, 2013-)
7. San Antonio (1989-90)
8. Miami (1987-94)
9. Tampa (1988-90)
10. San Jose (2006-07)
11. Toronto (1996-2015)
12. Edmonton (2005-10)

Worst NA Temporary Circuits:
1. Dallas (1984)
2. San Jose (2005)
3. San Antonio (1987-88)
4. Miami (2003)
5. New Orleans (1991)
6. Del Mar (1987-90)
7. Las Vegas (1983-84)
8. Houston (2013-14)

The award for the most confusing street circuit, for scoring purposes, and most absurd pit lane, goes to the 1985-88 IMSA street circuit in Columbus, Ohio.

The award for the most tiringly-repetitive street circuit would likely go to the 1982 layout of the F1 circuit in Detroit.

As for obnoxiously-slow airport circuits to host a major series, I think Halifax takes the cake.

An honorable mention goes to the RFK Stadium parking lot circuit that the ALMS used in 2002, which was actually pretty open and quick, and wasn't plagued by cautions. It also wasn't too long.

[Yannick]

Thanks for your rankings, Purist. I'm surprised that you don't like Baltimore much and I beg to differ: it's been a rather racy circuit (Hunter-Reay had a great charge through the field there in one of the races) and even the Pratt St. chicane ahead of the railroad tracks added to its intrigue. If you ranked it so low, it must have been because of the issues of the promoters and the city, not because of the actual racing. I kind of miss this track.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

How many spectators has Sonoma drawn (on average) over the last couple of years?

Also I'd like to throw Road Atlanta into the mix! And maybe VIR???

Originally Posted by Purist

Road Atlanta, and definitely VIR, would have to add debris fencing. Also, there may be particular concerns about that one crest on the back stretch at Road Atlanta.

The FIA might have something to say, since IndyCar has no record of running either of those circuits. Run-off in the latter part of "the Esses" and Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is tight, as well as in "the Snake", Uphill Esses, and Oak Tree at VIR. Also, at the far end of VIR, there is scope for someone to go for a ride like Cameron McConville took at Phillip Island in 2009, which is probably something you'd want to avoid have happening.

Max Papis told me 10 or 12 years ago at PLM that CART / Indy couldn't race at Road Atlanta. When I asked why, he said "walls too close".

VIR and RoadATL would be phenomenal to watch these cars go round. In fact, we get to see a few older CART/IRL cars do it every spring at RoadATL along with some very fast F1 cars. It's just not conducive for them at all and even with extra catch fencing, which would ruin the views and intimacy of Road ATL and perhaps VIR, it would still need quite a bit of safety improvements to even think about it. They could use the bike course chicanes, but that would be lame.

[Purist]

Yannick, on Baltimore, they made some alterations after 2011 that improved the course, and they also sorted out some things, like that loose manhole cover they had during the 2011 ALMS race. So, the 2012-13 courses, because they kept tweaking each year, were markedly better.

It's also just tricky because it's all relative. There have been only so many street courses in CART/CCWS/ICS. And there's kind of a mid-range in there where they're not great but not horrible, which means they didn't make either list, like the 1998-2001 Houston circuit.

If they had sorted out Pratt St., so they could use the full straight without a chicane, Baltimore might have been knocking on the door of the "best" list.

FoD79, if Road Atlanta was suitable for the LMP1s, like the Audi R10, Peugeot 908, and Acura ARX-02a, then the safety measures in place can't be that lacking. At VIR, (lack of) access to view parts of the course may be as big an issue as anything.

I also have to laugh about the "walls too close" comment, when the front stretch at Sears Point is walled-in like a street circuit.

[fieldodreams79]

We'll have to agree to disagree as it appears LMP1s are no longer suitable for Road Atlanta, but that's apples to oranges on comparison, imho. Speeds are similar but the different vehicles pose different concerns.

Front stretch at Sonoma is indeed similar to a street course in that there's barely room for a car to change direction before impact. This is completely different than the sections of concern; the Esses and T12 is where the main issues lay, perhaps T1 as well. Those walls can't move and there's barely any run off but the speeds there are immense.

Again, to avoid those locations, they could use the lame bike chicanes, but you mentioned the backstretch and the hill. It was cut down some years ago after the recent blow overs. However, if something goes wrong on the straights or at T9 with an Indycar there, the results could be catastrophic. It's changed but the speeds at 9 are similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0hKqbRALrA

Spectators are closer than then because of the concrete walls and catch fencing in place.

I'd rather not see them at Road ATL because they'd have to change the facilities even more, I'd rather it not change. And until they leave Barber, the southeast is covered.

[Purist]

I'm less concerned with the Indy Cars, because they both weigh less, and with the DW12, are going noticeably slower. I mean, that GTP weighs 500lb more, and could top out at 205-210mph, while the Indy Car wouldn't be doing more than about 185mph. The driver cell on the DW12 should also be a marked improvement over that Nissan NPT-91A.

LMP1s ran at Road Atlanta as recently as 2013, and the factory cars were there in 2011. "No longer suitable" my eye.

Running off at Turn 12 at Road Atlanta would be at a similar speed to clouting the wall in Turn 1 at Sears Point. In both cases, you're looking at hitting a solid wall with almost no run-out at 150-155mph. If need be, just bring the oval-spec tub. And Turn 1 at Road Atlanta is no worse than Turn 1 at Road America; the approach speed at Road America is probably higher, in fact.

[fieldodreams79]

Completely disagree with your comparisons. T12 is much faster than T1 at Sonoma and there's twice the runoff at T1 for Road America than T1 at Road Atlanta. Both are off camber as well. Still have issues with the esses.

185 and flying bodywork with fans closer than they are at a speedway is the concern. You can get really close at T9 and fans can sit well above the catch fencing.

If they are safe to run there then why has no one done so since the place opened 1970? Just didn't work out?

[Purist]

In general, Indy Car racing under USAC, and even CART, didn't venture a whole lot into the Southeast. They had a few visits to Atlanta Motor Speedway in the '60s, '60s, and early '80s. They had the one visit to Daytona in 1959 and one to Darlington in 1956. In the old days, that was all.

USAC didn't visit road courses all that regularly, period. You had just a few visits to Riverside and Mosport. You had one or two to Seattle, Continental Divide, Brainerd, Stardust, Sears Point, and Mont Tremblant.

No, Turn 12 at Road Atlanta really isn't any faster. You have to remember, they added that chicane just before the crest under the bridge, and the run from the chicane to Turn 12 isn't all that long. From exiting the T10 chicane to the apex of Turn 12 is seven seconds in an LMP1. In the DW12 with aero kit, from coming off T11 to the first apex of T1 at Sears Point is nine seconds, and to the second apex, it's eleven seconds. Also, the initial launch out of the chicane at Road Atlanta is uphill.

Sportscars can't make plenty of flying debris?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF1xHmiQqSU

At Road America's Turn 1, cars tend to go more or less straight off, while at Road Atlanta, they get part-way around the corner before leaving the track. So, Road America's run-off looks larger, because you get more distance in a straight line from the track before you hit the barriers, but in fact, with the tangential trajectory you get at Road Atlanta, there's a lot of space and distance to travel before you find something solid. The run-offs are shaped differently, but appropriately, for the different natures of those two corners. And at Road America, if you leave the track later in Turn 1, that wall is coming back in on you pretty quick at the exit. The camera angles used at Road Atlanta also tend to REALLY foreshorten the apparent distance to the barriers outside of Turn 1. It's like that camera outside of Parabolica that makes even F1 cars look like they're not traveling all that fast when they come out of Variente Ascari at Monza.

[fieldodreams79]

LMP cars are borderline and the Sharp incident was scary but rare for sportscars in that spot. OW cars touching wheels make flying easier. Do you know how close people can stand where that happened? Lucky no one was hurt and you've helped prove my point.

Making it safe to run open wheel cars at Road ATL will take more than simply adding some catch fencing here and there in addition to a few simple tweaks, which is what you've implied. I disagree wholeheartedly so I reckon we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Purist]

My issue is more with a seemingly inconsistent, and sometimes apparently arbitrary, set of standards. Can sportscars really get away with that much more than open-wheelers, or are we being silly in holding the latter to as much of a "higher" standard as we seem to do? Also, given all of the ground covered, um, how are street circuits allowed to do things that road courses are not?

If it's "not safe" on a road course, that judgment, to begin with, should be based on physics, in which case, it can't possibly be "safe" to have a lesser standard than a certain minimum, regardless of the type of course. At the same time, if that "lower" standard is actually "good enough", then there is no physics-based reason to have a differing standard elsewhere. It's this visible inconsistency that bothers me. (Maybe I'm just too German.)

The last full-on, wheel-to-wheel launch situation I can recall on a road course was Oriol Servia going for a high-flying ride at Laguna Seca in 2001. The last one on an oval was Dario Franchitti at Kentucky in 2007. Las Vegas, Houston, and others, have been wheel-to-bodywork contact, which happens in fendered cars as well. And really, it's the latter type that propels the launched car forward FAR more, whereas wheel to wheel sends the car higher, but for substantially less distance before it lands.

I don't know exactly how close I can get at Road Atlanta, but I DO know that for Road America, Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen, and Lime Rock Park. I rather doubt that Braselton is a particular anomaly compared to those other four in terms of potential viewing proximity.

It's not that I expressly want IndyCar at Road Atlanta, but I'm going to have to see something with my own eyes that is UNIQUE to it, compared to ALL the other road courses IndyCar or ChampCar have visited in modern open-wheel history to be convinced that it SHOULD BE precluded.

[fieldodreams79]

Come visit one day and see for yourself.

I've never been to them, but from what I can tell, Mosport and Lime Rock are the closest comparison to Road ATL, based on the course itself. I don't think it's a good idea for Indycars to race there either. Do you?

Wheel to wheel contact at a place they shouldn't race.
https://youtu.be/5yKtxLnTkBE

[JHamilton]

Comparing any corner at Sonoma and Road Atlanta just seems bizarre to me, especially T12. They've touted that as the fastest corner in US road racing since I've been going there. Indycar at Road Atlanta would be batshit crazy... the corner speeds are just too high considering the confines. Almost as dumb as 1.5 mile ovals... almost. Field was standing to my left and we were about 100ft from where Sharp landed (right where the photographer is at in that video). It's fast.

Luckily, considering who the new owners of Road Atl are and the proximity of Barber (about a 2 hour drive), we won't have to worry about Indycars anytime soon. I'll happily go back to Mid-Ohio, and will, if I want to see them again.

FWIW the hill at T8 was removed after the last flight.

[Purist]

For starters, there's no way Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is as fast as "the Kink" at Road America; Road Atlanta Turn 1 would be getting closer. As for average speed at Road Atlanta; it would probably be close to what we'll see at Watkins Glen this year.

The barriers are pretty darn close in through "the Esses" at Sonoma, and those are 130+mph corners for the Indy Cars. If they ran the original course at Sears Point, the pole average would be up around 130mph for the whole lap. I'd imagine the unmitigated Turn 10 there would be 160-165mph.

Having watched the Houston crash again, as I thought, it's wheel-to-bodywork contact. Franchitti's right-front was ahead of Sato's left-rear. Dario's right-front got up on that protruding lip of the undertray in front of the rear wheel, and at a very shallow angle, started to run up Taku's sidepod.

If they could avoid using the West Bend Chicane, I'd be interested in seeing the Indy Cars at Lime Rock, at least the once. I do think that track is a bit too confining for these cars though.

I can imagine that they've done something to ease that crest at Road Atlanta, but the hump is still apparent. They've had to do similar work at Mosport before Turn 8 there, and on the back stretch at Mont Tremblant as well. (Jackie Oliver flipped in Can-Am at St. Jovite.)

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Purist

For starters, there's no way Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is as fast as "the Kink" at Road America; Road Atlanta Turn 1 would be getting closer. As for average speed at Road Atlanta; it would probably be close to what we'll see at Watkins Glen this year

Trust me, the speeds are comparable but T9 is far quicker than the kink and similar in nature. Imagine spectators above the catch fencing on the outside of a not as tight kink with faster speeds, if that helps. Bad recipe.

And I would agree to similar lap average speeds at the Glen, with Road ATL being more confined and almost a mile shorter, with not as many straight bits. Corner speeds are bonkers, as JHamilton alluded too.

Having watched the Houston crash again, as I thought, it's wheel-to-bodywork contact. Franchitti's right-front was ahead of Sato's left-rear. Dario's right-front got up on that protruding lip of the undertray in front of the rear wheel, and at a very shallow angle, started to run up Taku's sidepod.

Wheel through bodywork to wheel, but however you want to swing it; the end was the same regardless of the means. Car airborne into catch fence near fans, thus my point.

If they could avoid using the West Bend Chicane, I'd be interested in seeing the Indy Cars at Lime Rock, at least the once. I do think that track is a bit too confining for these cars though.

Exactly. IMHO, take every turn at LR, minus the left hander, add a mile to it, plus more speed and greater elevation changes and you have Road ATL. Too confining, as you say.

[Roninho]

Without looking at financial issues and possible competing/nearby events, i have enjoyed most races (there is always the occasional borefest) at:

• Cleveland
• Montreal
• Michigan
• Fontana
• Hermanos rodriguez
• Portland

I dont really understand the fascination with Laguna Seca. Yes very scenic track, but racing typically wasnt great at all.

[Purist]

FoD79, you were first talking about speeds at T12 being equivalent to "the Kink", which they're not. Now that I've done some more looking, Turn 9 is probably about the same speed as "the Kink". The DW12 carries so much drag, the difference just won't be that much, plus Turn 7 is much slower than the exit of "the Carousel", and Road Atlanta T9 isn't as far down the straight as I was thinking previously. Turn 9 has a much larger radius than "the Kink", reducing the chances of a severe impact.. The cars would be less trimmed out for Road Atlanta than for Road America, and on a regular basis, the most they could get at Road America was 185mph down into Canada Corner.

I don't see how Road Atlanta is any more confined than Turn 2 up to the Innerloop and the exit of Turn 5 through till just before Turn 10 at Watkins Glen. Also, due to the SAFER barrier there, T11 at Watkins Glen has NO run-out room on exit.

You said yourself that it's rare to have an incident at Turn 2 at Road Atlanta. Turn 3 has had open ground outside of it for ages, now occupied by one of the bike chicanes. Even if you have a lazy spin past Turn 4, you still have a chance of keeping it off the walls. Also, apart from at the exit of Turn 4 and entering the following right, the line through "the Esses" is such that you would normally just make a glancing blow. Guy Smith had suspension failure in the middle of "the Esses", and was okay after his accident in 2006; I think the Dallara DW12 should have better crash protection than that Lola B06/10. Turns 5, 6, 7, and 10 all have run-off. As for Turn 9, do you remember Greg Moore's crash approaching Canada Corner at Road America in 1996? It's certainly possible to do the same thing again given the proximity of the walls there, still, and that section is even more open to spectators now. (Not to mention, even though they're elevated, how high can debris go?)

If you're going to cite a specific cause that leads to a specific hazard that you are using to justify ruling out a venue, make sure the incident you cite is actually a direct example. Dario Franchitti at Houston in not a direct example of wheel-to-wheel contact. As for the wheel-to-bodywork contact that can cause launches, I've seen it in V8 Supercars (McConville going for that ride at Phillip Island in 2009), and in ALMS GT2 between a BMW M3 and a Ford GT at Mosport in 2010 or so. (So, if the risk is that great and unacceptable, why are sportscars still racing at Road Atlanta?)

As for Lime Rock, it's a combination of the extraordinarily short lap and only having one straight, which isn't that long. You end up with a lap of corners, pretty much, even moreso than at the Brands Hatch Indy course, which I also think is unsatisfyingly short for these cars. Road Atlanta doesn't particularly have these issues; Mosport Park would actually be closer to that mark. However, if it meant having to have the course chicaned, I wouldn't want IndyCar going to Mosport anyway.

[Purist]

Roninho, they'll have to find a promoter for Cleveland, and get it approved again; one would hope the FAA wouldn't be too troublesome with the one-weekend-a-year closure.

With Montreal, there's always Bernie to consider, and watch out for.

Michigan and Fontana will require a promoter, and the right date. Fontana becomes more difficult when trying to do it under the lights, due to the time of sunset and the Eastern Time Zone.

Portland is on their radar, as mentioned in the link I posted in the 2017 Schedule thread.

Regarding Mexico City, with the changes they made for F1, I'm not so sure that the racing would be very good there anymore. Most corner apexes are now so abrupt that pretty much every turn is single-line. This should help show you what I mean.
http://www.racingcircuits.info/north...l#.V32SUI7o7GA

The racing CART put on at Laguna Seca was better than what is being produced at Sears Point now, with the course layout they're using, even given the improvement brought by the DW12. Apply the capabilities of the DW12 to Laguna Seca, and you should have some pretty good racing. The current car excels in the corners and kind of runs out of steam on the long straights, which Laguna doesn't really have.

The ONLY way to get good racing at Sears Point is to use the original course layout, which they keep insisting "isn't safe enough". And trying to tighten up the few slow corners they have hasn't worked; it's just increased the potential for spear-jobs, not overtaking.

[fieldodreams79]

Purist, still disagree, but

[Purist]

Even I had to take a few days to build up for another go.

Anyway, you guys will have to enjoy Iowa and Toronto; I'm going to be on a road trip here for a bit.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Purist

As for a wider picture, the ranking shakes up some when looking at North America, but not specifically major domestic open-wheel racing.

Best NA Temporary Circuits:
1. Cleveland (1982-89 and 1990-2007)
2. Vancouver (1994-97)
3. Montreal (1988-90)
4. Long Beach (1975-81 and 1999)
5. Las Vegas (2007)
6. Belle Isle (1998-2001, 2013-)
7. San Antonio (1989-90)
8. Miami (1987-94)
9. Tampa (1988-90)
10. San Jose (2006-07)
11. Toronto (1996-2015)
12. Edmonton (2005-10)

Worst NA Temporary Circuits:
1. Dallas (1984)
2. San Jose (2005)
3. San Antonio (1987-88)
4. Miami (2003)
5. New Orleans (1991)
6. Del Mar (1987-90)
7. Las Vegas (1983-84)
8. Houston (2013-14)

The award for the most confusing street circuit, for scoring purposes, and most absurd pit lane, goes to the 1985-88 IMSA street circuit in Columbus, Ohio.

The award for the most tiringly-repetitive street circuit would likely go to the 1982 layout of the F1 circuit in Detroit.

As for obnoxiously-slow airport circuits to host a major series, I think Halifax takes the cake.

An honorable mention goes to the RFK Stadium parking lot circuit that the ALMS used in 2002, which was actually pretty open and quick, and wasn't plagued by cautions. It also wasn't too long.

Too bad this is too long to my be signature