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Old 24 Aug 2012, 04:34 (Ref:3123906)   #301
ptclaus98
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ptclaus98 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There's not much wrong with the Dallara other than the fact that it's the only car you can get. The racing this year is some of the best I've ever seen at the top level full stop.
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 10:11 (Ref:3124007)   #302
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Because it's not a very good car. It's not what race fans wanted and as you say,
The car is producing good racing, its reliable and racey = I think thats what the fans wanted.

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Pat Patrick makes a valid point about using stock block engines as the cost would diminish greatly but that will just delay the inevitable unless there's innovation as well
You mean stock blocks like the early IRL cars?
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 12:00 (Ref:3124052)   #303
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You mean stock blocks like the early IRL cars?
The "Close your eyes and you think you're at a NASCAR Truck" race specials? Goody
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 12:54 (Ref:3124069)   #304
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Geez. The myopia that affects the series seems to affect the fans, too.

This series needs to do something other than to specify a car that meets price points. This series needs to do something other than to specify engines that meet price points (and do so by pushing less HP than the pace car). This series needs to do something other than specify parts sourcing that meet price points.

Yes, the racing has been better if you like to watch aerodynamics in action, particularly at the ovals. But there is no interest, if you will like you might have if the field were actually diversified. Let the Delta Wing run. Let teams use stock blocks. Let teams build their own chassis if they want. The thing that made Indy interesting for a number of years was the diversity. Anyone here remember the old Can Am? All sorts of approaches to resolving basic engineering problems using a given set of rules parameters.

Why NOT have alternative fuels? Why NOT have some knucklehead try to win the 500 (or any race) by making fewer stops or using natural gas or bovine-sourced methane or hydrogen or cat dander? How difficult could it be to come up with a sort of equivalency formula? I mean, really?

Right now you have a series that is in effect a glorified Star Mazda race. Most people couldn't tell you what kind of chassis is being run or the type of engine and since it is all controlled by the series anyway, who cares? Heck, we might as well go back to the old Formula Atlantic cars or bag the stupid aero kits or road course kits and just issue one, generic chassis with generic bodywork and then we can have an uber Barber Series.

All this crap about building cars that look like the cars back from the days when Champ Car was popular just misses the point completely. This isn't Historic Racing. This isn't a trip down Memory Lane. This is supposed to be a viable, top-rung series.

It isn't, it has not been for years and if everyone keeps their myopic focus on the cost of dzus fastners then there may not be a series to discuss.
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 12:59 (Ref:3124071)   #305
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Oh. And why not make it interesting and put up a STUPIDLY HUGE amount of prize money to win the 500, like say $5 million to win? Maybe an extra $1.5 million if you do it without ethanol???

Nah. The discussion will continue on how to make the cars look more like Penske PC23's or something...

Free the Penske Brothers!
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 14:16 (Ref:3124116)   #306
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I think you have to have some sort of minimum standard for the driver cell. The trouble is, I don't know how many teams have, within their own ranks, the knowledge in fabrication, materials fatigue, and aerodynamics to produce an effective and safe car on their own, not to mention the equipment required to build the car. As for Joe Schmo building a car in his garage, I'm sorry, but no. That's just NOT a good idea.

As for an equivalency formula, how has the ACO been perceived to be doing on that front for the last several year? In addition, you can expect that a factory or factories may leverage the sanction to (not so) subtly skew the equivalency in their favor.
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 15:17 (Ref:3124136)   #307
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The car is producing good racing, its reliable and racey = I think thats what the fans wanted.
No one's denying the racing's been good but who is watching?

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You mean stock blocks like the early IRL cars?
If that's what Pat Patrick was talking about but he wasn't talking about stock blocks in isolation, he also mentioned running them on natural gas, for the reasons he stated in the Gordon Kirby article.
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 15:29 (Ref:3124137)   #308
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There's not much wrong with the Dallara other than the fact that it's the only car you can get. The racing this year is some of the best I've ever seen at the top level full stop.
No, not much wrong with it, other than it needs a lump of metal in the nose to balance it; that was never necessary with the Reynards or Lolas and you wouldn't see that in an F1 car; the racing has been good.

The fact it is the only car, shows the lack of innovation on the part of the IRL. They stuck with a single chassis spec series because it was argued it would be cheaper, the opposite is the case. If they wanted innovation, they should have opened the competition to anyone who wanted to build a chassis and and anyone who wanted supplied an engine and if that proved to much for the prospective manufacturers so be it.

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Anyone here remember the old Can Am? All sorts of approaches to resolving basic engineering problems using a given set of rules parameters.
Yes I do remember Can-Am and remember when IndyCar also used all sorts of approaches to resolving basic engineering problems within a given set of rules parameters and that was in '70s, pre CART; IndyCar was never about spec racing.
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 17:48 (Ref:3124191)   #309
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I think you have to have some sort of minimum standard for the driver cell. The trouble is, I don't know how many teams have, within their own ranks, the knowledge in fabrication, materials fatigue, and aerodynamics to produce an effective and safe car on their own, not to mention the equipment required to build the car. As for Joe Schmo building a car in his garage, I'm sorry, but no. That's just NOT a good idea.

As for an equivalency formula, how has the ACO been perceived to be doing on that front for the last several year? In addition, you can expect that a factory or factories may leverage the sanction to (not so) subtly skew the equivalency in their favor.
Pat Patrick is not Joe Schmo. Neither did I imply that people would or should build a car in their garage (as in the backyard variety) and bring it to Indy. The DW exists - bring it on. Patrick wants to use natural gas - do it. You can make driver cell safety a standard requirement just as it is in F1.

As far as ACO goes I did not advocate using them. The BTCC has (or had) a weight penalty to reward too much success. This is not rocket science, nor is it easy, but I think it can be done or (gasp!) should at least be tried.
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Old 24 Aug 2012, 18:05 (Ref:3124199)   #310
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I used the ACO as an example, because they're about the only ones in major racing circles to even have an open door to substantially varying technologies powering the cars on their grids.

Also, JohnSSC, I'm pretty sure that the American public at large would HATE "success ballast". So, I don't see that as a viable option in this country if you want IndyCar to have the opportunity to have mass appeal again.

I'm not going to say that figuring a good equivalency between different power sources is impossible, but, as you say, it's NOT easy. And as I pointed out, there are complicating factors to reaching such a formula, with no lack of forces to try and push it in one direction or another away from true parity.
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Old 25 Aug 2012, 03:32 (Ref:3124375)   #311
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I used the ACO as an example, because they're about the only ones in major racing circles to even have an open door to substantially varying technologies powering the cars on their grids.

Also, JohnSSC, I'm pretty sure that the American public at large would HATE "success ballast". So, I don't see that as a viable option in this country if you want IndyCar to have the opportunity to have mass appeal again.

I'm not going to say that figuring a good equivalency between different power sources is impossible, but, as you say, it's NOT easy. And as I pointed out, there are complicating factors to reaching such a formula, with no lack of forces to try and push it in one direction or another away from true parity.
most local tracks use a form of success ballast, they'd most likely be fine with it.
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Old 25 Aug 2012, 16:47 (Ref:3124638)   #312
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Purist: Just throwing ideas out there. Your response, listing all the reasons why it shouldn't be done is (in my view) what hamstrings open wheel racing in this country.

It seems all of the major players either lack the vision to come up with something new/different or when the suggestion comes up they line up to recite all the reasons why it won't work.

As Matt noted, many local tracks use weight penalties. Some have claiming rules. Some use inverted grids. There are all sorts of grassroots solutions. Given time and some reasonable estimates from the engineers I believe the equivalency issue could be resolved. Let's add some drama: "Can the under-powered DW beat the standard car at Indy?" "Would using natural gas result in enough of an efficiency improvement to beat an ethanol fueled car?" These are just a few of the things that IndyCar could do now rather than goofing around with the time delay on push-to-block.

Remember the interest generated within the sports car world when Audi went diesel? Look at the technical innovation and fan interest in the internal battles at LeMans over the various technologies. Look at the value to the manufacturer's when their technlogy wins. Why the blue blazes would a manufacturer want to get involved in just one more spec series with cars and engines that really don't look or act much different than they did 25 years ago?

Open it up to innovation just like it was in the '60's when Lotus showed up with those funny, underpowered rear-engined (GASP!) cars.THAT generates interest, not push to block or coming up with a car that looks just like a PC-23.

Or watch the series strangulate itself like some sort of hideous hernia while it does.
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Old 25 Aug 2012, 18:10 (Ref:3124681)   #313
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Some solutions will be fine at local tracks, but I don't think "success ballast" (i.e. punishing guys for being successful) would go over too well in principle for a national series on a major TV network if you publicized it on the broadcast.

The perception is, reverse grids are for "lesser" series, clubs, and amateurs, and have no place/are demeaning to higher-level series; whether or not you agree with this, perception is often more important than reality.

NASCAR hasn't mentioned engine displacement in years (the fact that everyone has the same engine architecture and whatnot). After the initial buzz about the CoT, they stopped mentioning the new car (apart from aero tweaks at the plate tracks), and the fact that it means all the bodywork for every car is exactly the same, just with different manufacturer decals.

I'd like for there to be innovation, but a minimum safety/competency standard has to be kept, and manufacturer money can talk more than keeping a level playing field for the sake of "fairness".

Also, Audi didn't really gain more interest than they already had. Frankly, more people were despairing, because they knew it meant another boost to the Audi steamroller that had already been going since 2000. It was the entry of Peugeot to put up a fight aganst Audi that actually increased interest significantly in the category and the technology being used.
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Old 25 Aug 2012, 18:15 (Ref:3124683)   #314
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I personally think it would go over fine. Everyone would understand it, and most casual fans hate people that always win.

Sure, it's a gimmick, but the general public wouldn't hate it, they can directly relate to it, especially if they have a family member that competes.
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 01:18 (Ref:3124822)   #315
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08/25/12 Overheard at Sonoma - Saturday *Some team owners still do not want to see body kits introduced next year because they will likely all be the same after a year or so, just like F1 cars all look very similar.* Everyone copies a winning design.*
We hear that Entergy, the Nuclear Energy sponsor for the HVM Racing team are on the fence about returning.* We hear they are very disappointed that they are hamstringed with a Lotus engine they can't replace because of the politics between IndyCar and Lotus over breaking of the Lotus contract so they can depart.

We hear most team owners feel Randy Bernard's doubleheaders won't work.* Promoters are not going to pay two sanction fees for the weekend and a Saturday race would take away from the Sunday attendance.* So instead of having one successful event you end up with two poorly attended (i.e. loser) events.

We hear teams are asking where is next year's schedule?* Budgets are set in September and sponsors want to know how many races there will be in 2013.....and where.* Bernard promised a 2013 schedule by the 2nd week in September.* We doubt they will make it to Bernard's 19-race goal but we'll see.* They will need four new races for next year to make it to 19 and that assumes none of the existing races drop out.* Houston is one and definite.

We hear ticket and hospitality sales are going very well in Baltimore given the late start Andretti got. And the Sonoma Raceway president was meeting with IndyCar officials this afternoon with the goal of renewing.* In other track news, look for the Long Beach race to again be on the NBC Sports Network in 2013 and rumors of a possible Pocono race have gone silent.

Hearing Takuma Sato is likely back with Rahal in 2013 and Katherine Legge will not race in Baltimore for Dragon as previously reported.* It will be Bourdais.* Legge will race in Fontana.

Hearing that Justin Wilson's younger brother Stephan is working hard to put an IndyCar deal together for 2013.* As always, money will be an issue.

Despite ****ing on a woman's shoes and getting himself thrown in jail after a night of partying recently, Jay Penske's girlfriend Elaine Irwin (former wife of musician John Mellencamp) is here in Sonoma and hanging out in Jay's pits so it appears they are still together despite his recent publicity.

And finally, we hear Cosworth is near 100% certain out of F1 when the new engines get introduced and we spotted NHRA legend Don Prudhomme once again in the IndyCar paddock.* Hmm........*
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 01:22 (Ref:3124824)   #316
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Lol at Baltimore ticket sales doing well. Easily more than half of the 20,194 seats are available less than a week away from the race. They'll probably claim a weekend crowd of "150,000" and then call it a day. Unfortunately for the series television ratings are actual facts.
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 01:30 (Ref:3124827)   #317
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Lol at Baltimore ticket sales doing well. Easily more than half of the 20,194 seats are available less than a week away from the race. They'll probably claim a weekend crowd of "150,000" and then call it a day. Unfortunately for the series television ratings are actual facts.
But, but, ..............it's a "FESTIVAL OF SPEED"!

......thanks Kevin Kalkovan for that!
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 03:28 (Ref:3124862)   #318
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The fact it is the only car, shows the lack of innovation on the part of the IRL. They stuck with a single chassis spec series because it was argued it would be cheaper, the opposite is the case. If they wanted innovation, they should have opened the competition to anyone who wanted to build a chassis
Short term the car has proved more expensive than the previous Dallara - by no means would it be more expensive than opening up the rules to allow multiple chassis providers
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 12:50 (Ref:3125082)   #319
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I think Andretti needs to roll out an intense advertising blitz featuring the new refinements to Push-to-Pass. That should sell out the race in a matter of hours.

Yes, D.R.T., the possibility exists that new chassis' in the series could increase costs. Then again, it might also increase interest which could possibly increase sponsors.

This is another of my favorite counterpoints to making any real changes to IndyCar. I have to ask at this point if the goal is to have cheap cars with cheap parts in order to create more interest among potential owners, then what really is the point here?

Is the purpose of IndyCar to provide cheap, profitable racing opportunities for poor, downtrodden owners like Andretti, Ganassi, Penske et al or is it to sanction a series where owners and drivers want to contest a championship that fans want to see?

I can't wait to read the answers to this question.

PS- So glad to hear that Jay's girlfriend is at the race. Yet another compelling storyline courtesy of IndyCar and boorish behavior.
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 14:42 (Ref:3125250)   #320
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Old 26 Aug 2012, 15:03 (Ref:3125276)   #321
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Short term the car has proved more expensive than the previous Dallara - by no means would it be more expensive than opening up the rules to allow multiple chassis providers
Short term? It's nearly the end of the season, with two more races to go and if Ropin' Randy get's his 19 races next season the costs will be prohibitive for some of the smaller teams, especially if they have to get parts from Dallara, which is one of the teams biggest gripes. As for multiple chassis being more expensive that's not a given.
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Old 27 Aug 2012, 02:02 (Ref:3125604)   #322
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Short term the car has proved more expensive than the previous Dallara - by no means would it be more expensive than opening up the rules to allow multiple chassis providers
What if the teams were able to work out deals with vendors where they get deals on various parts of the cars? That seems to work in Japan with Super GT, and I've heard that's how it was with CART in the early days.
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Old 27 Aug 2012, 10:05 (Ref:3125721)   #323
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What if the teams were able to work out deals with vendors where they get deals on various parts of the cars? That seems to work in Japan with Super GT, and I've heard that's how it was with CART in the early days.
The current controversy is that teams have always made parts or sourced them from outside vendors. The contract with Dallara now requires that those parts be purchased from Dallara.
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Old 27 Aug 2012, 12:20 (Ref:3125782)   #324
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Originally Posted by JohnSSC View Post
The current controversy is that teams have always made parts or sourced them from outside vendors. The contract with Dallara now requires that those parts be purchased from Dallara.
And subsequently they cost a lot more.
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Old 27 Aug 2012, 12:59 (Ref:3125798)   #325
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Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
With multiple suppliers and multiple parts this provides an opportunity for such suppliers to proactively engage in sponsorship arrangements that would otherwise by closed off under the single-make regime that we have now.

As for the raceability of these cars - the jury is still very much out on that. An undeveloped chassis straight out of the box is going to be racey. Teams are going to struggle to develop a new car. The real test is will these cars stand up to multi-year development programs. Will the cars stand-up to that? The jury is still out on the DW I think - at every level.
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