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Old 27 Oct 2014, 15:21 (Ref:3469100)   #51
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Williams have declared a 20M 6 month loss in 2014 too
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Old 27 Oct 2014, 16:08 (Ref:3469114)   #52
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Tucky should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTucky should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTucky should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Hopefully third in the championship will give them a large enough constructors prize to overcome the financial loss and possibly gain more sponsorship.
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Old 27 Oct 2014, 16:20 (Ref:3469118)   #53
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Hopefully third in the championship will give them a large enough constructors prize to overcome the financial loss and possibly gain more sponsorship.
I thought I had read that Williams decided they needed to invest more and purposefully went into the red this year with the expectation (hope?) of doing better and getting a larger slice of the pie at the end of the year. Seems to be paying off so far!

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Old 27 Oct 2014, 18:06 (Ref:3469140)   #54
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skells22 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
and once again A.Rossi misses out on racing, i think he be cursing his luck at this stage
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 08:14 (Ref:3469307)   #55
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The fact that two teams have now gone into administration will be putting all teams on edge, and if you were a supplier to those teams seen to be in danger it will change the way you act, credit terms will be much harder for them and some suppliers will be demanding cash up front before supplying anything, especially if they are owed money already
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 12:49 (Ref:3469370)   #56
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I've been following F1 for decades and I've seen teams come and go but I don't remember ever seeing two teams fold before the season's out, in rapid sucession.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 13:05 (Ref:3469375)   #57
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The fact that two teams have now gone into administration will be putting all teams on edge, and if you were a supplier to those teams seen to be in danger it will change the way you act, credit terms will be much harder for them and some suppliers will be demanding cash up front before supplying anything, especially if they are owed money already
this is a good point, looking at it from a supplier point of view and how that could affect the chain. good old market forces.

you can't blame the suppliers for wanting to get paid though, but it must be a serious challenge being a f1 team accountant.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 13:21 (Ref:3469382)   #58
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As a general note, all this rubbish about road relevance has cost the teams vast sums of money, notwithstanding the rich teams v poor argument, I consider it a facile argument to be demanding a budget cap, when the FIA makes it more expensive to run a car.

Some may suggest that the manufacturers should ask a sum less than the cost of the engines so that it makes the whole thing more "fair". My answer is, stop pandering to road relevance, or the greens and go back to sticking big engines in small cars and make the drivers drive them. I'm sure a decent 4l V8 or V12 is going to cost substantially less than a V6 turbo power unit with all sorts of irrelevant (to racing) gubbins added to it.

Then the lesser teams will have more dosh to play with.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 13:58 (Ref:3469391)   #59
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As a general note, all this rubbish about road relevance has cost the teams vast sums of money, notwithstanding the rich teams v poor argument, I consider it a facile argument to be demanding a budget cap, when the FIA makes it more expensive to run a car.

Some may suggest that the manufacturers should ask a sum less than the cost of the engines so that it makes the whole thing more "fair". My answer is, stop pandering to road relevance, or the greens and go back to sticking big engines in small cars and make the drivers drive them. I'm sure a decent 4l V8 or V12 is going to cost substantially less than a V6 turbo power unit with all sorts of irrelevant (to racing) gubbins added to it.

Then the lesser teams will have more dosh to play with.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 15:06 (Ref:3469409)   #60
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Some may suggest that the manufacturers should ask a sum less than the cost of the engines so that it makes the whole thing more "fair". My answer is, stop pandering to road relevance, or the greens and go back to sticking big engines in small cars and make the drivers drive them. I'm sure a decent 4l V8 or V12 is going to cost substantially less than a V6 turbo power unit with all sorts of irrelevant (to racing) gubbins added to it.

Then the lesser teams will have more dosh to play with.
is it a given that going back in time is going to lead to more viewers, more sponsors, and hopefully more money for the teams?

given that TV numbers have been dwindling pretty much across the board for some time now and given that F1 has yet to recover/replace the loss of tobacco sponsorship is shaving 10-15 mil from the engine budget going to make any difference at all and even it did make a difference wouldn't all the the teams have freed up that same amount to spend on something else? rather wouldnt the status quo just be maintained?

just my opinion (well pretty common opinion these days) but F1's problems has more to do with how much the promoter takes, how much the teams get paid and how much the teams are able to generate in sponsorship.

currently the promoter takes too much and pays it out unevenly while refusing to rethink a strategy that has failed to promote the growth of TV and live numbers. a shrinking audience following anemic teams will not allow for any growth in the sponsorship market.

ideas aimed at having at least 10 marques that all have the ability to be competitive so that they can survive long enough to build up awareness and a strong fan base is whats needed imo. i think if you do that the money will sort itself out if for no other reason then the money is already there to do it with.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 15:20 (Ref:3469414)   #61
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is it a given that going back in time is going to lead to more viewers, more sponsors, and hopefully more money for the teams?

given that TV numbers have been dwindling pretty much across the board for some time now and given that F1 has yet to recover/replace the loss of tobacco sponsorship is shaving 10-15 mil from the engine budget going to make any difference at all and even it did make a difference wouldn't all the the teams have freed up that same amount to spend on something else? rather wouldnt the status quo just be maintained?

just my opinion (well pretty common opinion these days) but F1's problems has more to do with how much the promoter takes, how much the teams get paid and how much the teams are able to generate in sponsorship.

currently the promoter takes too much and pays it out unevenly while refusing to rethink a strategy that has failed to promote the growth of TV and live numbers. a shrinking audience following anemic teams will not allow for any growth in the sponsorship market.

ideas aimed at having at least 10 marques that all have the ability to be competitive so that they can survive long enough to build up awareness and a strong fan base is whats needed imo. i think if you do that the money will sort itself out if for no other reason then the money is already there to do it with.
The problem with TV is pay to view, it doesn't attract the casual fan. Then again there are die hard fans who resent having to pay. It's the same thing that's affected IndyCar. However, F1 has a global and bigger audience than IndyCar but pay to view is now beginning to bite.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 15:44 (Ref:3469420)   #62
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is it a given that going back in time is going to lead to more viewers, more sponsors, and hopefully more money for the teams?
Irrelevant we are talking about teams being able to afford to race, if some folks don't like it, who cares?

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given that TV numbers have been dwindling pretty much across the board for some time now and given that F1 has yet to recover/replace the loss of tobacco sponsorship is shaving 10-15 mil from the engine budget going to make any difference at all and even it did make a difference wouldn't all the the teams have freed up that same amount to spend on something else? rather wouldn't the status quo just be maintained?
Perhaps TV numbers have been dwindling because many of us have realised that what we have is a sham. There is absolutely no relevance to road cars in racing. Think back, racing started by improving/modifying road cars not the other way around.

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just my opinion (well pretty common opinion these days) but F1's problems has more to do with how much the promoter takes, how much the teams get paid and how much the teams are able to generate in sponsorship.

currently the promoter takes too much and pays it out unevenly while refusing to rethink a strategy that has failed to promote the growth of TV and live numbers. a shrinking audience following anemic teams will not allow for any growth in the sponsorship market.

ideas aimed at having at least 10 marques that all have the ability to be competitive so that they can survive long enough to build up awareness and a strong fan base is whats needed imo. i think if you do that the money will sort itself out if for no other reason then the money is already there to do it with.
So, what you say is stop promoters making money? Good luck with that. As said there is enough cash floating around in Formula 1, just in the wrong places. But then to make things even more complicated and expensive on the back of "eco friendliness" or road car relevance is nothing short of lying.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 15:48 (Ref:3469421)   #63
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Irrelevant we are talking about teams being able to afford to race, if some folks don't like it, who cares?



Perhaps TV numbers have been dwindling because many of us have realised that what we have is a sham. There is absolutely no relevance to road cars in racing. Think back, racing started by improving/modifying road cars not the other way around.
Peter you are spot on, what do race cars have to do with road cars? Simple answer bugger all...
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 15:52 (Ref:3469422)   #64
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Food for thought.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mot...istration.html

Apologies for dragging this off topic but it is wider than just Marussia.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 16:01 (Ref:3469427)   #65
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The problem with TV is pay to view, it doesn't attract the casual fan. Then again there are die hard fans who resent having to pay. It's the same thing that's affected IndyCar. However, F1 has a global and bigger audience than IndyCar but pay to view is now beginning to bite.
it is a problem although i suspect we see it as a problem for different reasons.

personally i dont think they make PPV available on enough platforms, its is restricted by things like cable and mobile provider, they have chosen too high a price point and require long term subscriptions. $2-3 per race weekend on the device of your choice and for as little or as many races as you want and i think you start winning back those casual viewers. subsidize races to include advertising and charge a premium for non advert feed. more choice is the answer on this imo.

from other thread here it seems the biggest issue is that most people (here) have is price point and the requirement to pay that large price to SKY/Fox empire. the problem is not with the PPV model itself just its implementation imo.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 16:15 (Ref:3469431)   #66
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Good piece from Will Buxton...

http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com...lasts-forever/
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 16:29 (Ref:3469433)   #67
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With the extremely dodgy characters being bandied about that are apparently looking to 'save' the team you have really got to wonder what they would achieve if successful in getting hold of it and how long it would last for after that anyway.

In both cases, as I understand it Marussia and Caterham both need to enter cars at Abu Dhabi to keep their registration (and therefore saleable worth)

Whether that means they actually have to compete or not, I don't know?
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 16:46 (Ref:3469435)   #68
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Irrelevant we are talking about teams being able to afford to race, if some folks don't like it, who cares?
i think it matters. if no one cares then where is the money to go racing going to come from?

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Perhaps TV numbers have been dwindling because many of us have realised that what we have is a sham. There is absolutely no relevance to road cars in racing. Think back, racing started by improving/modifying road cars not the other way around.
of course there could be many reasons why numbers are dropping. my life experience lead me to believe that it about failing to connect with a younger demographic combined with failing to promote healthy competition among equals. i have said this before but perhaps is a N.American thing as our sports league are always striving to facilitate parity among all of the teams as well as offering an equal split of tv revenue.

naturally my suggestions, including those on the PPV system, stem from what we have over here.

the connection to road relevance is an odd one. as a race fan i dont need to see that connection but understand that the manufacturers need to promote that connection as it does (presumably)help with road car sales .

as a car owner and race fan i certainly get a kick when the car salesperson starts talking about their company's racing pedigree but really im going to buy a car based on how well it suits my needs with financial needs being the most important.

all things being equal do i want to help a road car company go racing if that means my car becomes more expensive?

so for me, im not sure the connection between road cars and race cars need be any more complex then one of perception (and a perception based on history at that). i suspect those with far more engineering knowledge then myself think very differently.

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So, what you say is stop promoters making money? Good luck with that. As said there is enough cash floating around in Formula 1, just in the wrong places. But then to make things even more complicated and expensive on the back of "eco friendliness" or road car relevance is nothing short of lying.
of course im not saying we should stop promoters from making money.

perhaps i should have been more clear but if your promoter is not making you enough money you (or too much for themselves) then just maybe its time to find a different promoter.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 17:02 (Ref:3469438)   #69
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i think it matters. if no one cares then where is the money to go racing going to come from?
We haven't got anything sustainable at the moment. Some crackpot will come up with reasons why these units are not green enough and off we go again. Racing is nothing to do with technology its about who can go fastest. We, or many people, seem to have forgotten that. The fact that nobody watches it has nothing to do with racing. So if the promoters keep making it more difficult for teams to race then it's a self fulfilling prophesy.

They need to get real and realise that the sport is about speed not how far you can drive on a mosquito's bladder of fuel.



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of course there could be many reasons why numbers are dropping. my life experience lead me to believe that it about failing to connect with a younger demographic combined with failing to promote healthy competition among equals. i have said this before but perhaps is a N.American thing as our sports league are always striving to facilitate parity among all of the teams as well as offering an equal split of tv revenue.
The younger demographic has been fed the bullshit that competition is bad and that fairness in all things is good. Not exactly the way to get them interested in competitive sport. Then again when we were the younger demographic the sponsors were condom companies, jeans, motor oils, booze and cigarettes. These latter two are considered bad in this day and age. So where are the phone and computer companies that should be appealing to the younger demographic? They don't need to sponsor racing cars because they sell on the back of their own marketing. Ergo the sport needs to move away from expensive initiatives and get back to being all about racing.

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naturally my suggestions, including those on the PPV system, stem from what we have over here.

the connection to road relevance is an odd one. as a race fan i dont need to see that connection but understand that the manufacturers need to promote that connection as it does (presumably)help with road car sales .

as a car owner and race fan i certainly get a kick when the car salesperson starts talking about their company's racing pedigree but really im going to buy a car based on how well it suits my needs with financial needs being the most important.

all things being equal do i want to help a road car company go racing if that means my car becomes more expensive?

so for me, im not sure the connection between road cars and race cars need be any more complex then one of perception (and a perception based on history at that). i suspect those with far more engineering knowledge then myself think very differently.

of course im not saying we should stop promoters from making money.

perhaps i should have been more clear but if your promoter is not making you enough money you (or too much for themselves) then just maybe its time to find a different promoter.
If your car is a ford and the world champion's car is powered by a ford racing engine then that's about as far as road relevance should go.

We may well get a new promoter soon if CVC can't provide more than 16 cars for the first race of 2015.
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 18:08 (Ref:3469451)   #70
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Bernie was against the new engines all along....
Was it the cost that he was most concerned about?
If the engine bill has gone from 9 million to 20-25million then it is not hard to see why the teams at the bottom of the pile are struggling...and failing...
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 18:20 (Ref:3469457)   #71
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They need to get real and realise that the sport is about speed not how far you can drive on a mosquito's bladder of fuel.
i agree racing is about going fastest. the point i am trying, unsuccessfully it seems, is that i would like to see more teams operating at the fastest possible speed.

from your other posts i assume you work in the energy sector or a related field? fuel efficiency or other pseudo green tech may seem silly to you but right or wrong the majority of western society is thinking green...or at least pretending to.

anyways even if they dropped the engine rules the money you are talking about saving will not come close to helping those teams in need.

for me competition is not one or two teams lapping the remainder. spending 200mill compared to those spending 100-50mil is not competition imo. ensuring that teams have an equal starting point and then seeing what they can do starting from a level starting place is what parity is and its why the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA are among the most popular sports leagues in the world. and why the NFL chiefly is becoming the new model in terms of both how to ensure a competitive field while making more money then ever before.

i have asked the question about why mobile companies like Apple have no interest in F1. why have all the consumer electronics brands been chased away?

technology companies want to associate themselves with progress while f1 is a case study in moving backwards and that is the fault of old people running to default solutions that worked in the past and its debatable how good those ideas were back then even.

anyways agree to disagree
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Old 28 Oct 2014, 19:19 (Ref:3469472)   #72
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Talking green isn't talking about road relevance but world relevance. All the "road relevance" you want is "our team built this high octane F1 car in high pressure situations; the same calibre of men and women that'll build your car tomorrow."

Going green is virtually inevitable. F1 is too integrated with the commercial world to avoid it. But it's not some mad cure that'll attract a whole new universe of sponsorship that'll restore the sport. In fact, if they make the green angle too pronounced it'll confuse and underwhelm the audience who are looking for fuel guzzling monstrosities that race on the edge and the kind of people who put stress on environmentalism won't engage with the sport whatever you do.

But the problem isn't compulsory niceness or everyone-gets-a-prize either.

The problem is fundamental and its the standing of the car. It's diminished. A car isn't something to crave for looks anymore - it serves utilitarian purposes. There's no Ford Sierra anymore. Modern cars look like abnormal, chubby slabs on wheels, devoid of charisma. With people disengaging from the idea that the car is something to crave, this has a correspondingly negative, strong impact on the popularity of motorsport.

What I would do is strip out all that stupid IT and expensive technological garbage that doesn't do one whit for the quality of the sport and let these guys race. Let cars race not laptops on wheels. They won't do that of course but I'll continue to dream about it anyway.

Last edited by Paradise City; 28 Oct 2014 at 19:24.
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Old 29 Oct 2014, 08:31 (Ref:3469641)   #73
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i agree racing is about going fastest. the point i am trying, unsuccessfully it seems, is that i would like to see more teams operating at the fastest possible speed.

from your other posts i assume you work in the energy sector or a related field? fuel efficiency or other pseudo green tech may seem silly to you but right or wrong the majority of western society is thinking green...or at least pretending to.
FWIW I believe we should all make an effort to reduce the use of resources, but it should be personal choice not an ideal foisted on us by profiteers and carpetbaggers, who then receive massive sums of my money to subsidise inefficient wind farms and and the like. It's another thread but you may be interested to learn that many "western" governments are now backing away from the subsidies, thereby making the wind farm a much less attractive proposition to the businesses.

anyways even if they dropped the engine rules the money you are talking about saving will not come close to helping those teams in need.

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for me competition is not one or two teams lapping the remainder. spending 200mill compared to those spending 100-50mil is not competition imo. ensuring that teams have an equal starting point and then seeing what they can do starting from a level starting place is what parity is and its why the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA are among the most popular sports leagues in the world. and why the NFL chiefly is becoming the new model in terms of both how to ensure a competitive field while making more money then ever before.
For me its the winner in the best car wins. Full stop, why do we need to make things a level playing field?

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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
i have asked the question about why mobile companies like Apple have no interest in F1. why have all the consumer electronics brands been chased away?

technology companies want to associate themselves with progress while f1 is a case study in moving backwards and that is the fault of old people running to default solutions that worked in the past and its debatable how good those ideas were back then even.

anyways agree to disagree


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Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
Talking green isn't talking about road relevance but world relevance. All the "road relevance" you want is "our team built this high octane F1 car in high pressure situations; the same calibre of men and women that'll build your car tomorrow."
World relevance is an interesting thought. Trouble is legislating for one country whilst its next door neighbour is ignoring the legislation kind of knocks that theory on the head don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
Going green is virtually inevitable. F1 is too integrated with the commercial world to avoid it. But it's not some mad cure that'll attract a whole new universe of sponsorship that'll restore the sport. In fact, if they make the green angle too pronounced it'll confuse and underwhelm the audience who are looking for fuel guzzling monstrosities that race on the edge and the kind of people who put stress on environmentalism won't engage with the sport whatever you do.
The point may be that being integrated with the commercial world is actually killing it. It bears no relevance to motor sport any more. It's a technological display.

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Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
But the problem isn't compulsory niceness or everyone-gets-a-prize either.

The problem is fundamental and its the standing of the car. It's diminished. A car isn't something to crave for looks anymore - it serves utilitarian purposes. There's no Ford Sierra anymore. Modern cars look like abnormal, chubby slabs on wheels, devoid of charisma. With people disengaging from the idea that the car is something to crave, this has a correspondingly negative, strong impact on the popularity of motorsport.

What I would do is strip out all that stupid IT and expensive technological garbage that doesn't do one whit for the quality of the sport and let these guys race. Let cars race not laptops on wheels. They won't do that of course but I'll continue to dream about it anyway.
Agreed.
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Old 29 Oct 2014, 09:15 (Ref:3469648)   #74
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For me its the winner in the best car wins. Full stop, why do we need to make things a level playing field?
Sport is about a fair competition and from that the best effort wins. Artificially advantaging one or more participants means it's no longer sport and merely a bashing.

... but then F1 is not a sport... and these days it's not even entertainment either.
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Old 29 Oct 2014, 10:31 (Ref:3469658)   #75
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Originally Posted by davyboy View Post
Sport is about a fair competition and from that the best effort wins. Artificially advantaging one or more participants means it's no longer sport and merely a bashing.

... but then F1 is not a sport... and these days it's not even entertainment either.
Almost. Sport is about competition, nothing "fair" about it at all. Agreed formula 1 is not very entertaining either.
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